What receiver to buy?

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:04 am

Well, my HT is virtually complete. 50" Plasma 1080p TV, 7.1 suround speaker system installed, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, FIOS Home Media streaming HD-DVR, multi-region multi-system upconverting HDMI DVD player, multi-system VCR, Laserdisc, double cassette deck and 3-speed turntable.

The last item requiring upgrade is my receiver, which although I love my current Pio 2016, it unfortunately cannot decode the latest HD audio streams from my Blu-Ray and HD DVD players, so I have to "relegate" this receiver to the secondary (i.e. "kids") HT, and need a THX-certified receiver with sufficient power and Dolby TrueHS, and DTS HD-Master Audio decoding built in.

I've narrowed it down to two:
Pioneer VSX-LX51 and Onkyo TX-SR706.

I have priced them within $10 of one another ($679 and $689, respectively), and see the differences (that matter to me) as follows:

Onkyo has an extra HDMI input (important to me since I hace FOUR HDMI sources) and a phono input. With the Pioneer, I would have to use an off-board HDMI switcher and a phono pre-amp - 2 additional small items in my rack.

The Pioneer has customizable front panel display (VERY useful when assigning various inputs to various devices), and a USB port for iPod and memory stick media file (JPEG, WMA) playback. So with the Onkyo, I'd have to "remember" (not a big deal) and "train" the family (a much bigger deal) which input selection corresponds to which actual source, and find an alternative means to payback other media (perhaps the FIOS Home Media server can compensate)

The power specs are hard for me to compare, since they're not clearly comparing apples to apples, but seem to be effectively similar (ranging from 100-150 W/channel)

I have historically liked Pioneer, but have no REAL good reason for this affinity. I have been happy with their performance and think it puts out a really nice sound. I have no reason to dislike the Onkyo on performance grounds either, I believe.

So what does the general community think? Pioneer or Onkyo?

Tommy Tyler · Post by **Tommy Tyler** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:34 am

Well, I've owned a lot of Pioneer receivers over the years, and they're like the Eveready Bunny, they just keep going. I've never known one to fail. I even have one that is older than you probably, made back when they used "wood" on the enclosures.

But seriously, I just ordered one of Samsung's new LED DLP 1080p TVs (what a piece of technology that is), and am interested in your experience with upconverting DVDs. In your opinion, how much improvement do you see in old DVDs that are upconverted to 1080p? Is it enough that you don't feel the urge to re-purchase any favorites on expensive Blu-ray disks?

Tommy

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:15 pm

I like upconverted DVDs just fine.

They are CLEARLY inferior to actual HD but they'll do for a LOT of my library. I don't for a moment think they have the detail of real HD feeds, whether FIOS-OTA, HD-DVD or Blu-ray (all of which I'm currently watching).

BUT, having said that, I am not planning to rush out and get Blu-ray versions of every DVD I own. That would be the exception rather than the rule. Something that truly will WOW me in HD. Everybody will have their own criteria, but, for example, Laurence of Arabia? You BET I'll upgrade to Blu-ray with that. Animal House? My SD DVD is good for a LOOOONG time. Bladerunner? Heck, I already have it on Laserdisc and DVD but the HDDVD is spectactular! I'll upgrade my Indiana Jones movies when they come out on Blu-ray, but not the Lara Crofts.

YMMV

As to my original question, the real challenge is finding a receiver that can handle SIX video sources, FOUR of which are HDMI. Even though the Onkyo has 4 HDMI inputs, each one gets "mapped" to an analog Video input and renders the analog inputs associated with that source moot, so the TOTAL number of A-V sources is only FIVE. While the Pioneeer allows its THREE HDMI sources to be independently selected from the remaining FIVE analog A-V sources (for a total of EIGHT). Hmmmm.... decisions, decisions....

mr_d_p_gumby · Post by **mr_d_p_gumby** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:23 pm

My experience with Pioneer has been mixed. Some years ago I bought & returned a Pioneer receiver because the signal-to-noise in it's Dolby decoder was atrocious. The only piece of Pioneer gear I still have is an old top-of-the-line laserdisc player that works OK electrically, but has mechanical problems (drawer won't slide open without lots of coaxing, display window fell off because double-stick tape dried out, etc.).

Tommy, you'll like the Samsung TV. I got a 61" 1080p LED DLP a few months ago and it is great. I can't comment on it's upscaling abilities because I'm using an Onkyo TX-NR905 receiver to do all the upscaling. It does a great job on regular DVDs, perhaps enough so that I only feel the need for a Blu-Ray disc once in a while.

zaphod7501 · Post by **zaphod7501** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:21 pm

I haven't researched receivers lately, but you should check on HDCP compliance for the multiple HDMI connections. HDMI switching won't help if HDCP gets blocked and your Blu-Ray gets downconverted.

Post by **vickyg2003** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:46 pm

Butting in here, but what is

HDCP Compliance?

HDMI?

HDMI switching won't help if HDCP gets blocked

What does all this mean? I'm getting ready to buy new components and I need to start my education somewhere.

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:35 pm

zaphod7501 wrote:I haven't researched receivers lately, but you should check on HDCP compliance for the multiple HDMI connections. HDMI switching won't help if HDCP gets blocked and your Blu-Ray gets downconverted.

Yeah, these all work well with passing DHCP data. I've been lurking on a lot of AV boards sorting through all of this stuff.

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:01 pm

vickyg2003 wrote:Butting in here, but what is

HDCP Compliance?

HDMI?

HDMI switching won't help if HDCP gets blocked

What does all this mean? I'm getting ready to buy new components and I need to start my education somewhere.

Oh boy, Vick. If you intend to delve into the world of Hi Def, you'd better get out you learning goggles!

HDMI is the High Definition Media Interface. It is the latest digital interface designed to carry (primarily) Hi Definition video up to 1080p. It also (at least the 1.3 version) is the only interface that can pass the latest "lossless" digital audio codecs, called Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-Master Audio. One cable. carrying both digital HD Video and digital "HD" Audio. Oh yeah, it ALSO carries any High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) signals that may be embedded in those digital streams. Most mid-to high-end receivers today offer HDMI switching and will decode these HD Audio streams into glorious, "lossless" 7.1 surround sound.

What HDCP is designed to do, is to "protect" the copyright owners from you and me illegally sharing, copying, distributing these HD signals, so some (most?, certainly not all) HD content may/will carry digital HDCP flags, which will prevent recording or copying the high resolution signals. Depending upon the specifics of the flags, a Blu-ray disc, for example, may "allow" your player to output a 1080p signals via HDMI (which you cannot record), but will DOWN-res it to 1080i, 720p or even 480p for the Component Video output (which is an analog output and carries no DHCP flags, so it could, theoretically be recorded with impunity).

What is even more insidious, however, is that in order to enable the full HD signals to be passed and displayed on your TV, the player must receive a DHCP "handshake" signal from the receiving display unit (TV) or the HDMI signal will be blocked, or muted, or some other nuisance. I have read (but not personally experienced) horror stories in which an intermediate device, like an HDMI switcher (which I use), or a receiver (which I also use) in the HDMI signal path has some compatibility issues with the display device and the DHCP signal is not properly processed and passed, so the HDMI High res feed is blocked and one cannot watch that highest quality signal for which one paid.

One can simply default to using the component video connections instead of the HDMI, but then one is likely limiting oneself to a LOWER-quality picture than would be available via the HDMI feed.

HDCP and HDMI applies to current broadcast signals (Satellite, OTA and Cable) as well as Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs, so HDMI switching is an inevitability for most folks.

Another nuisance is that SOME receivers will provide HDMI switching, but CANNOT USE the HDMI AUDIO stream, so even though the signal and data are there, you still need to connect an additional optical or coax digital audio connection to your receiver/amplifier. The rub being that the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HS-MA streams cannot be passed via any other path besides HDMI. Not a DHCP issue, but a bandwidth issue. Those older digital audio interfaces simply cannot accommodate 7.1 channels of lossless audio data.

So when buying AV components, one has to ensure that all of this HDMI and HDCP stuff will work together properly. A daunting task, at the very least.

zaphod7501 · Post by **zaphod7501** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:23 pm

I'm glad I didn't check in yesterday afternoon and have to explain all of that.

Post by **vickyg2003** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:52 am

Thank you!!!

That was a great explanation!!!!

greenough1 · Post by **greenough1** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:42 am

Hi Capn,
I'm a big fan of Onkyo, since back in the early 80's. The only reason I've gotten a new receiver was to get new decoders, like DTS/DD5.1. I had a really nice Integra 2 channel receivers for nearly 20 years. Then upgraded, when I got into HT and needed DTS/DD5.1, to an Onkyo 575x. Since then the line is split with Integra being the higher-end audiophile version and Onkyo being the "lower-end" consumer grade version. Integra uses hand selected components, but provides less features for the same level in the product line-up and is substantially more expensive over the equilvalent Onkyo. I also think that Onkyo is conservative in their power estimates compared to other manufacturers.

From your list or requirements, the extra HDMI input in the Onkyo should seal the deal. Input labelling, should be a lesser concern, once your remote is setup to control it

I have no direct experience comparing to the Pioneer. I'm just a very satisfied Onkyo owner and do not hesitate recommending this brand to others.

Best,
jeff

mr_d_p_gumby · Post by **mr_d_p_gumby** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:58 pm

Capn Trips wrote:Oh boy, Vick. If you intend to delve into the world of Hi Def, you'd better get out you learning goggles!

What he said!

In choosing the Onkyo receiver for my system I indeed had to assess if all of the HDMI & HDCP stuff was going to work properly too. So far, it seems to do so. For example, it is able to obtain the video processing delay time from the Samsung TV so it can adjust the audio delay to match.

As to the question of Onkyo vs Pioneer, I would have to say I've been satisfied with the Onkyo. It is the first piece of Onkyo gear I've owned, and I was actually looking to get an Integra preamp, but they were on backorder for so long I gave up. I'm sort-of using it as a preamp, but I did end up using its power amps for the rear surrounds.

I know there is a big price difference between mine & the model you are considering, but FWIW, it does allow customizing the input labels on the display (and on-screen display).

greenough1 wrote:From your list or requirements, the extra HDMI input in the Onkyo should seal the deal.

I'd tend to agree. It will make life easier not to have to contend with the compatibility of another HDMI device.

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:23 pm

Thanks for all of the comments, folks. I was wrong - THIS model of Onkyo DOES allow customizing the input names, so I think this pretty much seals the deal. Just got to find the ~$700 somewhere! (Time to sell some comic books and vinyl albums on eBay!)

GLT · Post by **GLT** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:44 pm

Hope it's not too late - but how about this -

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OBJW1S?tag=j0df-20

Just a good deal on last years model and free shipping...

Sorry if its not what you want - didn't read the whole thread.

GLT

P.S. Also see this thread to get the 706 S for $360!

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=1000717

Capn Trips · Post by **Capn Trips** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:14 pm

Thanks for the advice. I ultimately settled on the higher-end (read "Power") 875 and am really enjoying it, although that's a good deal. An additional (admittedly dumb) requirement I imposed, was to get a SILVER receiver rather than a black one, and often the silvers cost more for no apparent reason, but the 875 I found was at the same price as black 875s($700 for a $1200 unit!) so I'm very happy. Its only shortcoming, addressed in the newer 876 (or even HIGHER-end 906) is it does not have HD radio tuner built-in, but I never listen to the radio on the thing anyways.