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rr1mand0
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: EEPROMs |
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re: http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=413
Hi Rob,
on the link you list above, you mention eeproms that you have/had available. What devices can be upgraded? What type of eeproms are they? Is there anymore information about this on the site? Do you have any more available?
Thanks
BTW, awesome site, information and service |
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The Robman
Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 21238
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:16 am Post subject: |
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These are mainly 2k EEPROMs, part number 24C16 but I also have a few 8k chips.
Most JP1 remotes can only handle EEPROMs up to 2k in size, but a select few can handle larger chips.
I only have a few 8k chips (like 3 or 4) but I have about 100 2k chips as I use them all the time to modify URC-6131 remotes, so yes, I have plenty available if you need them.
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Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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nikon
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: You have 8ks? :) |
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Hi Rob,
I'm pretty new to the whole JP1 thing, but I've been into electronics, puters, and the like since I was little. I just recently bought a URC-6012w from Wally World, and was looking for some more info on it in terms of remote control hacks, and during my search, I came across both jp1.filebug.com, and hifi-remote.com. I started to read through some of the info, and went on to build a simple JP1 interface with cable. However, when I went to mod the 6012w, I ended up melting off the pads during my 6 pin header install, and the jumper across JMP2, so I got frustrated, gave up on trying to mod that one, went back and took it back, and went with the next step up - the 8810w. However, for the functionality I'm looking for, it looks like I'm going to have to switch up the 2k eeprom for something bigger, and was wondering if I'd be able to buy one of the 8ks you have left from you, and how much would you want for one.
See, I just installed the device upgrade in the remote for the Sci-Atlanta Explorer 8000 box (the DVR from Time Warner), and according to IR, I only have 125 (is that bytes?) of macro/keymove space left.
So if there's any way of contacting you to buy one from you, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks! 
-Nikon
_________________
-Sporting a nice new 8810w, upgraded, and extended, now it's going somewhere...
...I guess I need to get out my handy-dandy net, and go catch it.  |
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johnsfine
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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You should try to fit what you want in the remote before deciding you need more eeprom. If it doesn't fit without using the (software) extender, try with the extender.
I strongly doubt that you'll actually need over 2K.
But if you insist on risking a perfectly good 8810 to your soldering skills (I'm sure they're better than mine, but you've cast doubt on whether they're good enough). Rob's email address is easy to find both here and on his web site. |
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nikon
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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It's called having too high of wattage soldering wand on low resistence pads, and with a crappy tip, it just makes it that much worse. Not to mention it's been nearly 6 years since I've done soldering of any kind, so I'm a little rusty. That's the first time that's ever happened to me, though, and I've worked with worse conditions, so I blame it on the low resistant pads. Part of it was me forgetting to put some solder on the pads first. Anywho, if your soldering skills are that bad, why are you questioning mine, and have you ever successfully removed a 1k eeprom from a cable remote, and still had it work? It's not easy, but I did it, and was going to use that on the 6012w which, I had it on there successfully as well. And on top of that, I had everything soldered successfully, but the wire, or rather, the paperclip I used to jump JMP2 had too much resistance on it, and it was only when I went to replace it that I blew the pads on that jumper. Furthermore, the pads for the 6 pin header only blew when I removed it to throw back in my parts bin, and take the remote back without mods.
So, before you go assuming something, please try asking for more info first.
Oh, and about the extenders, I've been reading through post after post about people having problems with the one for this paticular remote. And believe me, this remote is going to be used between 4 people, and 2 of them aren't the brightest crayons in the box (the couple my wife and I live with). I rather not be bothered every 5 seconds going "Damien, why is this happening?", "Damien, how do I do (this or that)?" This remote has a lot of the same layout as the cable remote I just put the upgrade in for, so I don't have to worry about them on that part, thank gawd.
Anywho, to get the rest of the functionalities I want on there, a 4k would suffice, but if I have the opportunity to get an 8k, I'll take it. You don't let an opportunity for a rare item slip by.
Of course, I could just go down to National Semiconductor (formerly Fairchild Semiconductor [sound familiar?], and a less than 30 min drive from me) and probably get an even bigger one there (not to mention buy a batch from them, and sell them to JP1 users at dirt cheap prices [hint-hint]), but I wouldn't be helping anyone by just buying one for myself from the company. I'd rather order one from Rob, and give him a couple bucks to help keep the site maintained. And then consider the NS trip, for users on here, later, as my appreciation for the help.
However, I do appreciate the response, and for pointing out about Rob's email address.
Thankyou.
_________________
-Sporting a nice new 8810w, upgraded, and extended, now it's going somewhere...
...I guess I need to get out my handy-dandy net, and go catch it. |
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| nikon wrote: | | So, before you go assuming something, please try asking for more info first. |
Well, I'm guilty of the same assumption. 
I even re-read your original post just now to make sure I didn't misinterpret what you said. It sure sounded like your skills weren't up to par.
[moderator hat ON]
Anyway, no need to take any of this personally, nor is there any need to jump on John for his comments. Let's just chalk it up to a "failure to communicate" and move on, ok?
[moderator hat OFF]
As for larger than 2k EEPROMS, it is very unlikely you'll need it. Rob's got an unextended 15-1994 remote controlling 13 devices at last count. With JP1 and the extender, you can probably make that 8810w sing the national anthem if you tried hard enough!
Also, without the extender, you CAN'T use any EEPROM larger than the 2k.
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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(I hate hitting Submit when I meant to hit preview!)
The remote's EEPROM is not like RAM in a PC. Just because you replace a 2k chip with 8k doesn't give any additional storage space without a lot of special handling (i.e. the extender) to take advantage of it.
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johnsfine
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| nikon wrote: | | Anywho, if your soldering skills are that bad, why are you questioning mine, |
I didn't intend it as an insult. JUst reacting to what you said.
The more important point, which seems to have gotten lost, is that a lot more fits in a 2K eeprom than you probably expect. (Based on your "125 byte" comment, and again no insult intended).
| nikon wrote: | | and have you ever successfully removed a 1k eeprom from a cable remote, and still had it work? |
The last time I successfully moved a soldered IC from one PC board to another was 1974 and the pins were on 1/10 inch spacing and I thought that was the absolute extreme of tight spacing at which such a task could be possible. Neither my eyesight nor my manual dexterity is as good as it was in 1974.
| nikon wrote: |
So, before you go assuming something, please try asking for more info first. |
A good suggestion concerning effective eeprom capacity.
| nikon wrote: |
Oh, and about the extenders, I've been reading through post after post about people having problems with the one for this paticular remote.
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That problem is well understood and the solution is known and posted. I'm sorry I haven't had time to retest, repackage, redocument the extender .ZIP file to finally bury this issue. Since I have to update a bunch of different versions for different eeproms and most of them I can't test, it isn't as trivial as you might expect (to just add the three NOPs).
| nikon wrote: |
And believe me, this remote is going to be used between 4 people, and 2 of them aren't the brightest crayons in the box (the couple my wife and I live with). I rather not be bothered every 5 seconds going "Damien, why is this happening?", "Damien, how do I do (this or that)?"
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The extender won't make it harder for them to use or understand. It will make it easier for you to control exactly the way the remote behaves when they use it.
| nikon wrote: |
Anywho, to get the rest of the functionalities I want on there, a 4k would suffice, but if I have the opportunity to get an 8k, I'll take it. You don't let an opportunity for a rare item slip by.
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I wouldn't suggest a 4K. If you want to change eeproms, the 8K is best for a few reasons. Since I think 2K would be enough, I think 4K is very much enough, but the 4K vs. 8K price difference is insignificant and more people have 8K than 4K, so it's easier to get help for the 8K than the 4K.
But you mentioned the limited amount of KeyMove/Macro memory as a factor and you plan to not use the extender, so I assume you missed the detail that a 4K or 8K eeprom without the extender gets you the same amount of KeyMove/Macro space as a 2K. To make any meaningful use of an 8K eeprom, you need the extender.
| nikon wrote: |
Of course, I could just go down to National Semiconductor (formerly Fairchild Semiconductor [sound familiar?], and a less than 30 min drive from me) and probably get an even bigger one there (not to mention buy a batch from them, and sell them to JP1 users at dirt cheap prices [hint-hint]), but I wouldn't be helping anyone by just buying one for myself from the company. I'd rather order one from Rob, and give him a couple bucks to help keep the site maintained. |
I'm sure Rob is offering eeproms as a favor for JP1 users who are more than 30 minutes from a convenient source, not for the profit (if any) he makes after shipping costs. Buy it locally or from Rob, chosen for your convenience, not based on supporting the group.
I would actually prefer to see more people using 8K eeproms and streaching the remote's functionality (with many DSMs etc.) in ways that actually need more than 2K. I only advised you against it, because I thought you'd get everything you wanted with less effort with 2K.
If you think offering cheaper 8K eeproms will encourage more people to try it, I think that would be great.
You might also have missed the detail that each brand/model of eeprom needs some initial testing (with a program I posted at Yahoo) to find the right work around for UEI's firmware bug in accessing 4K+ eeproms. One advantage of a JP1 group member selling 8K eeproms is that he can run the test once covering the whole batch of eeproms and just provide the answer to purchasers rather than making them test their own. |
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nikon
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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To Mark:
| Quote: | | I even re-read your original post just now to make sure I didn't misinterpret what you said. It sure sounded like your skills weren't up to par. |
Yeah, I should have worded it different. My apologies to you too, John.
| Quote: | [moderator hat ON]
Anyway, no need to take any of this personally, nor is there any need to jump on John for his comments. Let's just chalk it up to a "failure to communicate" and move on, ok?
[moderator hat OFF] |
Already done. Just took a break from all this and came back, and feel a bit different.
| Quote: | | As for larger than 2k EEPROMS, it is very unlikely you'll need it. Rob's got an unextended 15-1994 remote controlling 13 devices at last count. With JP1 and the extender, you can probably make that 8810w sing the national anthem if you tried hard enough! |
LOL, true... true... I did read about him doing that.
To John:
First, let me apologize for being rude. It just seemed like you were treating me like someone who didn't know what I was doing. As far as JP1, yeah, that may be the case, but not as far as soldering goes. I'm just rusty, lol.
| Quote: | | I didn't intend it as an insult. JUst reacting to what you said. |
Yeah, I realize that now. Again, my apologies.
| Quote: | | The more important point, which seems to have gotten lost, is that a lot more fits in a 2K eeprom than you probably expect. (Based on your "125 byte" comment, and again no insult intended). |
It doesn't seem like it, unless I can utilize the 'learned' space for other stuff, as that's almost a full 1k left, completely empty. It seems like each new key move takes about 5 bytes, so with only 125 bytes left in that part, that's 55 key moves, and if I plan to put in more macros, that's even less.
In fact, I just hooked up the remote again, and IR is reporting:
| Code: | Move/Macro 125 free
Upgrade 718 free
Learned 1021 free |
I need to do the math more for understanding that part.
| Quote: | | The last time I successfully moved a soldered IC... ...was in 1974. |
I could only conclude that you are older than I am, then, and we're basically on the same page as far as soldering skills go then, lol, just rusty. And don't think you wouldn't be able to do it - if it meant developing a device to save the world, you could - you would just have to shed the rust, such as I'm trying to do, lol.
| Quote: | | That problem is well understood and the solution is known and posted. I'm sorry I... ...it isn't as trivial as you might expect (to just add the three NOPs). |
Again, my apologies, I wasn't trying to jump on you, because I had no idea that you were the one dealing with that. I was just trying to say I was a little uneasy with using the extender after what I read. And btw, what's a NOP, or a ToadTog? Those are among the few things I haven't understood about dealing with JP1 programming yet.
| Quote: | | The extender won't make it harder for them to use or understand. It will make it easier for you to control exactly the way the remote behaves when they use it. |
The problem wouldn't be the behavior, the problem arises with trying to teach them to use it - again, the question would come up, "Damien, how do I do (this or that)?", just about every 5 seconds or so.
Oh, and further down in your response you said that I didn't plan to use the extender. That's true to a point, I just felt uneasy about using it until the bugs were worked out. But since it sounds like it's been fixed (a sincere thank you for that one  ), I'll definitely give it a shot and try and figure out how to use the extender, as well as the advanced codes, to put in the better functionality for my DVD player and RCVR. If you can point me in the direction to getting help with installing extenders, and how to go about using the advanced codes I found for my stuff, that would be much appreciated. Those are the other couple things I couldn't quite figure out how to do.
| Quote: | | I only advised you against it, because I thought you'd get everything you wanted with less effort with 2K. |
Yeah, I see your point, but I'd love to try and utilize a bigger chip, not only for me, but for the group as well, since I've found such great info around here on what the possibilities are for a $20 remote.(no sarcasm intended)
| Quote: | | If you think offering cheaper 8K eeproms will encourage more people to try it, I think that would be great. |
Thank you! I'm really considering it. Based on your post, I may actually drive my wife to work so I can stop there on the way back, and see if I can even attempt to buy some. It only costs a little gas to get there to NS, and shipping, heck, a little tiny static bag, some bubble wrap, and a good envelope, and walah.
| Quote: | | You might also have missed the detail that each brand/model of eeprom needs some initial testing (with a program I posted at Yahoo) to find the right work around for UEI's firmware bug in accessing 4K+ eeproms. |
True, I did, I admit it.
| Quote: | | One advantage of a JP1 group member selling 8K eeproms is that he can run the test once covering the whole batch of eeproms and just provide the answer to purchasers rather than making them test their own. |
Yes, again, very true. Don't worry, you'll see some good stuff come from me, in return for helping me out.
In closing, thanks to both of you for any help (such as not realizing that you actually do need the extender to utilize a bigger chip), and again, I apologize for the misunderstandings, and rudeness.
-Nikon
_________________
-Sporting a nice new 8810w, upgraded, and extended, now it's going somewhere...
...I guess I need to get out my handy-dandy net, and go catch it. |
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The Robman
Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 21238
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| nikon wrote: | In fact, I just hooked up the remote again, and IR is reporting:
| Code: | Move/Macro 125 free
Upgrade 718 free
Learned 1021 free |
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Trust me, you've got more than enough memory left to do your thing. The important category is "upgrade" memory, that's where you'll put the upgrades for any new devices that you add. The "move/macro" memory is just for keymoves and macros, not upgrades.
Like the others have suggested, if you really can't fit everything into the memory "as is", your next step should be to try the extender as this will let you re-claim all the wasted learning memory for other purposes.
But let me repeat the point that John was making, just in case it was missed, in order to utilize an EEPROM chip larger than 2k, you will NEED to use an extender, so keep that in mind.
As for the chips, I offer them totally as a service, at $2 a piece I'm not exactly raking it in. If you know where to get them locally, you can probably do much better on the price and I won't be offended in the least.
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Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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Capn Trips
Expert
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 3990
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nikon wrote: | IR is reporting:
| Code: | Move/Macro 125 free
Upgrade 718 free
Learned 1021 free |
I need to do the math more for understanding that part. |
Here's the math - when you install the extender, your "Learned" will go to "N/A" and your "Move/Macro" will go to 1146.
The extender itself will consume some of the 718 you have available for "Upgrade", but as several of the experts have been trying to point out in this thread, you should have MORE than ample KeyMove and Macro memory available after installing the extender.
You seem to have another misconception about the extender making the remote "more complicated" to use, somehow. Quite the contrary - with the extender, you can make ANY key assignments, even those seemingly prohibited by the remote's current programming limitations, and set it up precisely so that people with less intuitive understanding of all this electronic geek stuff can just, oh - for example, push "DVD" and have the receiver turn on, select DVD, the TV turn on, select Component input 1, the DVD player turn on, load the disc, and keep the transport keys operating the DVD player, the TV screen aspect and PIP keys operating the TV, and the Volume and Mute keys operating the Receiver if you wish. Push the same button and HOLD it a little longer, and you can make it turn everything off, or simply assign the devices as above without sending any signals, or any number of things.
THAT is the beauty of any extender. It simplifies USE of the remote (if not necessarily the programming of same) 
A larger EEPROM isn't what you need (unless it is what you WANT for ultra-geeking purposes, which I deny nobody's right to). The EXTENDER is PRECISELY what you need to make your dim-witted (no offense intended)  housemates able to operate your entertainment system with minimal training and coaching. (in my humble opinion) |
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nikon
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Hey Rob,
Thanks for taking some time out to get back to me.
| The Robman wrote: | | Trust me, you've got more than enough memory left to do your thing. The important category is "upgrade" memory, that's where you'll put the upgrades for any new devices that you add. The "move/macro" memory is just for keymoves and macros, not upgrades. |
I don't want to argue anymore, so let me just ask, have you heard of upgrades taking the "move/macro" memory? Because this one that I installed, for my Explorer 8000 box from Time Warner, put a lot of key moves in, and cut my free space by about 2/3rds. I actually had to take and rearrange some of the key moves just to get it from reporting "83 free" down to what it says now, when I started with something like 249.
| Quote: | | Like the others have suggested, if you really can't fit everything into the memory "as is", your next step should be to try the extender as this will let you re-claim all the wasted learning memory for other purposes. |
Yeah, I'm planning on trying it out, especially after what they said, but I just wasn't sure how to go about installing the extender.
| Quote: | | But let me repeat the point that John was making, just in case it was missed, in order to utilize an EEPROM chip larger than 2k, you will NEED to use an extender, so keep that in mind. |
Yeah, I understood that after he said it. Nah, didn't miss that. And that's part of why I'm planning on installing the extender.
| Quote: | | As for the chips, I offer them totally as a service, at $2 a piece I'm not exactly raking it in. If you know where to get them locally, you can probably do much better on the price and I won't be offended in the least. |
Yeah, I just know that it takes some money, not to mention lots of 'man-hours' to keep up a site, and I also know that any little bit helps. But I'll tell you what, if I can strike up a deal with NS, and manage to get a batch of them, would you be interested in working out something so that you have a supply of them as well? As it is, I'm not sure if I'd keep selling them once my remote and stuff's set up, and to be honest, I'm not sure how much I could contribute after that either, so I much rather get them to someone who can use them more, and is constantly contributing to the group.
And if anyone else is interested in jumping on this, please reply.
-Nikon
_________________
-Sporting a nice new 8810w, upgraded, and extended, now it's going somewhere...
...I guess I need to get out my handy-dandy net, and go catch it. |
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nikon
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:29 am Post subject: Hey Trips :) |
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Thanks for the response. As flamboyant as it was, it did help to understand HOW the extender makes things better, and I thank you for that. Even the experts just kept saying, 'it makes things better', but didn't explain how. I mean, I had already planned on installing it after I read the bugs had been fixed in it, to see what it did, but that clears it right up. Thankyou.
Oh, and about being geeky about the remotes, man, I'm a geek through and through, and if I can make the remote dance, twirl, and play a tune through some robotics just because I know it can be done, I will, lol. 
| Quote: | | ...your dim-witted (no offense intended) housemates... |
(believe me, none taken)
| Quote: | | ...able to operate your entertainment system with minimal training and coaching. (in my humble opinion) |
I agree, totally, especially now that it's clearer.
Thanks a lot for your post. It kinda upset me at first with it being so flamboyent - almost like saying 'for a geek, this guy sure can't figure it out', but by the end, I was rolling, lol
Thanks again,
Nikon
_________________
-Sporting a nice new 8810w, upgraded, and extended, now it's going somewhere...
...I guess I need to get out my handy-dandy net, and go catch it. |
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mr_d_p_gumby
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 1370
Location: Newbury Park, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| nikon wrote: | | I don't want to argue anymore, so let me just ask, have you heard of upgrades taking the "move/macro" memory? Because this one that I installed, for my Explorer 8000 box from Time Warner, put a lot of key moves in, and cut my free space by about 2/3rds. I actually had to take and rearrange some of the key moves just to get it from reporting "83 free" down to what it says now, when I started with something like 249. |
If you try to program every button with a function, then yes, you'll have a lot of keymoves. You might be able to reduce the number by choosing another device type. For example, with a function assigned to every unshifted button (including the 4 phantoms) with Cable type selected, you'd have 120 bytes of keymoves. Using a VCR type reduces this to 95 bytes, because more keys are mapped in this mode. Beyond that, you have to start asking yourself if it's really important that every function be available on a button. I expect the SA 8000 box is more of an exception here, but most devices would tend to need fewer buttons. In any event, if you use the extender, you should have plenty of room for all the keymoves you want, even in a 2K EEPROM.
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Mike England |
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jherrick
JP1 Vendor
Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 225
Location: South Berwick, ME
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yeah, I just know that it takes some money, not to mention lots of 'man-hours' to keep up a site, and I also know that any little bit helps. But I'll tell you what, if I can strike up a deal with NS, and manage to get a batch of them, would you be interested in working out something so that you have a supply of them as well? As it is, I'm not sure if I'd keep selling them once my remote and stuff's set up, and to be honest, I'm not sure how much I could contribute after that either, so I much rather get them to someone who can use them more, and is constantly contributing to the group.
And if anyone else is interested in jumping on this, please reply.
-Nikon |
Nikon,
I am assuming you mean the manufacturing plant of National. I would be interested to hear how it goes, walking in and asking for product. I don't think it will work, as they (and I know this sounds foolish) ship the products in bulk (tubes or reels) to distributors and it is broken up from there. Based on what I've seen in my experience with the electronics industry (I work in it) I would be surprised if they were willing to sell to you directly.
But good luck! |
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