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JP1 Remotes
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lafrederick
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:27 am Post subject: I must be REALLY dull! |
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I have read the JP1 for beginners.But I just don't get it. I have programmed Prontos before, which seems REALLY easy compared to this.
Hex is NOT my friend if you know what I mean  First I have programmed the URC-8910 remote with my device codes. No probelm. Except many of the preset buttons are in the wrong position, or do not exist. So I thought I would move buttons, but it seems like a foreign language to me. Especially in IR.exe. I see that the buttons are preprogramed with EFC codes. But how do I move them? And where as there is no picture of the buttons I am moving to (or from) just EFC codes (with IR.exe)?? Seems very nebulous to me. I can see the code with KM and such. But what do I do? If someone could help me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. LIke I said I must be DULL!!!!
It just doesn't make sense. The"light" has not turned on for me!!
We aren't even talking macros here! Just simple stuff (theortically)
I would like to make it so that when you push DVD, all devices get set up for that, Inputs, controls etc. Or DSS, etc (like the mini-tutorial..which also doesn't make much sense with"phantom $23"..etc)
HELP!!!!! I am a dolt!!!!
Larry |
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The Robman
Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 21238
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Larry,
JP1 program is WAY easier than Pronto programming, so one the light bulb is turned on, you'll be well on your way.
There are two tools for JP1 programming, one is IR.exe, which is the tool you use to communicate with the remote. For the second you have a choice of KM or RM, both are tools that you use to create upgrades. This is where you should be focussing your attention.
Pick one of your devices that you want to program, then look in the Yahoo file section to see if there's a pre-existing upgrade for it. If there is, open it up using KM. Ignore the fact that there's alot of settings that can be changed because for the most part you don't need to change any of them. All you need to change in the Setup sheet is the selected remote.
Next, go to the Functions sheet and make sure that all of the functions you need are listed. If any of them are missing, you can either get the EFCs from my web site or by learning the buttons in question, downloading the memory using IR.exe and viewing the codes in the Learned Signals tab.
Next, go to the Buttons sheet and assign the functions to buttons, using the drop-down menu items.
When this is complete, go back to the Setup sheet and cut & paste the code blocks over to IR.exe
In KM (or RM), you can deal with "functions" rather than EFCs. IR.exe is just a tool that lets you edit the data that's programmed into your remote, it doesn't know what the functions are that are associated with EFCs, so here you can only deal with codes rather than functions. For this reason, it's better to manage the functions in KM (or RM).
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Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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lafrederick
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:47 pm Post subject: Doah!!! Still a dolt!!!!! |
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Ok..I get that ..BUT when I go into KM and put my devices 4 digit setup code, it does show the functions, and then to the right it says to redefine keys (I don't have my laptop next to me with KM to look at) but something like that.
But when I attempt (key phrase!) to move any key it won't let me??
The pull down menu (off to the right) is there for each function ..with nothing in it upon pulling it down???? Do I type in this cell the location of the button I want it to go to????
Like I said I must be totally dull because it seems like this should be pretty simple. Do I need to have the remote plugged in with the JP1 at the time I am doing all of this??
What am I missing here???
Sony SAT 4 AC3 DSS receiver is what I am attempting to modify now.
Then my DVD player.
But this is only the beginning! I want to make this remote jump over tall buildings!
As usual any help is greatly appreciated.
Larry |
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Doah!!! Still a dolt!!!!! |
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| lafrederick wrote: | | when I go into KM and put my devices 4 digit setup code, it does show the functions, and then to the right it says to redefine keys (I don't have my laptop next to me with KM to look at) but something like that. |
Can you be more specific? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Are you possibly confusing KM and IR?
If it's KM you're having trouble with, have you read the keymap-master-readme.txt file that comes with KM? It explains what info needs to go where, and how to do it (like using the in-cell drop-downs, etc).
| Quote: | But when I attempt (key phrase!) to move any key it won't let me??
The pull down menu (off to the right) is there for each function ..with nothing in it upon pulling it down???? Do I type in this cell the location of the button I want it to go to???? |
Again, I'm not sure I follow you. If you're talking about KM, are you referring to the Functions or Buttons sheet? If so, are you literally trying to drag & drop things around the screen? That won't work in KM (an Excel limitation, not KM's). In any of the data input cells in KM, you can type an entry, or, if applicable, use the in-cell drop-down.
| Quote: | | Do I need to have the remote plugged in with the JP1 at the time I am doing all of this?? |
The only time you need to have the remote connected is when you're using IR to perform an upload or download. You never need it connected when using KM (KM doesn't have any way to communicate with the remote).
| Quote: | | I want to make this remote jump over tall buildings! |
Give it time... the light bulb  will eventually go on, and you'll be looking for a parachute! 8)
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Mark |
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The Robman
Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 21238
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Doah!!! Still a dolt!!!!! |
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| lafrederick wrote: | | Ok..I get that ..BUT when I go into KM and put my devices 4 digit setup code, it does show the functions, and then to the right it says to redefine keys (I don't have my laptop next to me with KM to look at) but something like that. |
I think I see the problem here. KM doesn't know anything about any built in setup codes that are in your remote, it's a tool for building new setup codes.
For example, let's say you're using DVD/0571 to control your Pioneer DVD player and you want to use KM to re-arrange the buttons, youcan't just fire up KM and enter 0571 and expect all the info to appear, you would have to either load up an upgrade that someone else has created, or make a new one yourself.
To make a new one, you would learn the buttons from the original remote, decode the info using IR.exe, then enter this info into KM.
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Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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lafrederick
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:28 pm Post subject: Ok I'll "bite"?? |
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On my brand spanking new URC 8910 it looks like I can "learn 4 things-or buttons at a time (L1,L2, L3, L4). Is that true becasue that is what the manual says?
SO ...Oh wisest one What I need to do is print out the device sheet (from KM) and learn my remote (4 keys at a time?) as the code setup information is of NO help here (I am guessing) and know what each buttons HEX is? Correct? Then go and build up a KM sheet on that remote? And put in each buttons HEX code line by line in Excel (KM).Really? Or is there an easier way to see each key(button) HEX code? Wow That is a LOT of work? Pronto is MUCH easier than this (so far) . Just an observation. I am a industrial designer/product manager for comsumer electronic products -as a consultant. I am NOT an engineer, nor is math my best subject and I NEVER learned HEX as I graduated HS in 1967. And ART was my major. And so FAR from all the remotes I have used (only URC's, Universals, Prontos, RCA's) the Pronto is the simpliest (And it was TOUGH!).
Hey I am into as logical and simple as possible. And so far this has not been logical nor simple (at least to me)
The "Light" has still not gone ON 
Yeah Yeah ..... I am a dolt and I admit it
Larry -and thanks for hanging in there with an idiot
BTW the equipment I am using currently is a Toshiba 55 inch rear projector, a Sony STR-DE935 (5.1 receiver), a Sony CDP-CX300 CD changer, a Sony SAT-A4 DSS receiver, and a dopey KLH-KD-1220 DVD player (it'll play all my DVD's I get in China when I am there ever 45 days! Not much else to do there) |
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wwwoholic
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I just have to say this:
the reason "this has not been logical nor simple" is that some "industrial designer for consumer electronic" at UEI haven't got a clue at what he/she was doing, or at least didn't bother with consumers' needs at all. The guys here in fact are trying to fix that. |
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johnsfine
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Ok I'll "bite"?? |
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| lafrederick wrote: | | On my brand spanking new URC 8910 it looks like I can "learn 4 things-or buttons at a time (L1,L2, L3, L4). Is that true becasue that is what the manual says? |
The manual misleads you. You can learn to almost any key. Some of the Pioneer signals take more eeprom space to learn than typical signals, so I'd expect to run out of room after about 15 signals (you could then download those, delete them from the remote and then learn more).
| lafrederick wrote: | | Pronto is MUCH easier than this (so far) . |
I think JP1 is generally easier than Pronto (based on listening to users of both at RemoteCentral). Pioneer DVD signals are particulary tricky for JP1, but for Pronto they are no different than ordinary signals. So you may not notice that JP1 is easier until you get to some other device.
BTW, if you have a CCF file aleady for these signals, you would find it easier to use my DecodeCCF program to decode that rather than relearn any on the 8910.
| lafrederick wrote: | | I NEVER learned HEX |
JP1 users almost never need to do anything real with HEX. In rare cases you need to recognise that a two character thing involving digits and the letters A to F is a hex number, and you may need to copy it from place to place. More often you don't touch the hex at all. Advising both Pronto users and JP1 users in various advanced IR signals issues, I frequently need to tell Pronto users how to do actual HEX computations (using Windows calculator in view/scientific mode) and almost never need to tell JP1 users that.
| lafrederick wrote: |
BTW the equipment I am using currently is a Toshiba 55 inch rear projector, a Sony STR-DE935 (5.1 receiver), a Sony CDP-CX300 CD changer, a Sony SAT-A4 DSS receiver, and a dopey KLH-KD-1220 DVD player |
Oops. I guess I was confused by the DVD/0571 comment above (DVD/0571 is Pioneer and tricky). I'll need to reread this thread and see what setup code (if any) you're starting with.
The devices4.xls speadsheet has the base data for setup codes that are also in the 15-1994, so if it's one of those you can easily copy all the data from there to KM and then just add what few keys are missing. |
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| lafrederick wrote: | | SO ...Oh wisest one What I need to do is print out the device sheet (from KM) and learn my remote (4 keys at a time?) as the code setup information is of NO help here (I am guessing) and know what each buttons HEX is? Correct? Then go and build up a KM sheet on that remote? And put in each buttons HEX code line by line in Excel (KM).Really? Or is there an easier way to see each key(button) HEX code? Wow That is a LOT of work? Pronto is MUCH easier than this (so far) . Just an observation. I am a industrial designer/product manager for comsumer electronic products -as a consultant. I am NOT an engineer, nor is math my best subject and I NEVER learned HEX as I graduated HS in 1967. And ART was my major. And so FAR from all the remotes I have used (only URC's, Universals, Prontos, RCA's) the Pronto is the simpliest (And it was TOUGH!). |
Let's start with some basics. I'll try to step you through this as painlessly as I know how. I'm making a few assumptions here. One is you're very unfamiliar with KM and IR in general. Second, the protocol you're going to learn isn't one that requires any special attention (i.e. it's a simple one that decodes normally and doesn't rely on combo codes, etc). Third, you said you were a dolt! 
First, if you must print anything (as opposed to using Window's multitasking), what you want to print out is the Functions sheet. Really simple, make sure it's visible on the screen and select File, Print (KM automatically adjusts it to print on 2 pages).
Now, learn the signals you want from the OEM remote. I'd suggest the DVD player since it likely has the simplest protocol in your stable of equipment.
Fire up IR, connect the remote, and do a Download.
Go to the Learned Signals tab. Look for the signal decode in the upper right pane where you'll see:
# | Protocol | Device | Sub-Device | OBC | Hex Cmd | EFC | Misc
Jot down the Protocol, Device, and Sub-Device.
On your printed copy of the Function sheet, write the decoded EFC in the EFC column next to the appropriate function name. These are only defaults by the way. In KM, you can type over or edit them to suit your needs. Do this for all your learned signals for this device.
Disconnect the remote, and leave IR running.
You're going to take this info back to KM. On the Setup sheet, you'll do these steps:
- Select your Remote from the in-cell drop-down.
- Choose a Device Type from the drop-down.
- Enter a 4-digit Setup Code.
- Select the proper Protocol from the in-cell drop-down.
- Enter the necessary Device and/or Sub-Device in the appropriate cells.
Now we move on to the Functions sheet. For each function you want to define, enter its name (or use one of the defaults), and then enter the corresponding EFC in the EFC column.
Next stop: the Buttons sheet. For each button, there is an in-cell drop-down where you will select the desired function you want to assign. Read the on-screen notes and the readme file to understand why some cells are grayed out, certain buttons have an "@" in front of them, etc. Once you have all the buttons assigned the way you want them, go back to the Setup sheet.
See the box labeled Device Upgrade Code? At the upper left is a Copy button. Click it and the code will be copied to the Window's Clipboard. You may be prompted to either setup AutoRunIR, or if it already is, whether you want to go to IR. Choose No (you left IR running above, didn't you?).
Activate IR, go to the Devices tab, click the Add button, and paste the copied code into the upper pane. Click OK
Go to IR's General tab. Enter your Device Type and Setup code in the cells corresponding to the Device Button you want to use. Note: for now, do NOT choose the same Device Button that the Learned Signals are on.
Now would be a good time to do a File, Save to save the current IR settings. Then, re-connect your remote, and Upload to it. Disconnect the cable, and try it out.
Barring any IR error messages along the way, or some whacky protocol that is more involved, you should have just created your first upgrade!
Hopefully, this will help get that to come on. What I've outlined above is very basic, and is covered in JP1 for Beginners.
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lafrederick
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:14 pm Post subject: You guys are the BEST!!!!! |
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Good info from ALL. Appreciate it. As soon as get done with my "honey do" list (Christmas stuff) I will read, digest and do what you guys said.
Hey I am the smartest guy in my group of consumer electronics sales/product/training amonst the Sony/Alpine/MTX/Cerwin-Vega/Pioneer/HK,etc. All are good friend of mine. And this is tough for me! Whoa, that ain't good! And I totally agree with whomever said the the URC Product guy's are NOT thinking about the consumer NOR how any real human being would use a remote. I am designing a new AV processor (based on the Sunfire Theatre Grand "template" ) BUT...with a 7 inch TFT screen built in -$6,000.00 processor and a $4,000 7 channel 300 watt per channel theater amp. A "Killer" double 12 sub-woofer system (with 3,000 watts built in, and a version with the amp remote) So I am "playing" with all these remotes (next is the MX-500 with IR clone) to see what to use for our products. So far I hate them all.
My feeling is to pre-program the remote for the normal functions, so for example when you hit the DVD button all inputs and functions automatically switch over to DVD and you are ready to rock and roll.
And DSS, or Cable, etc. What do you guys think???? It needs to be WAY easier. Cause if it is tough for me, what about Joe Schmo out there?? Thats where I come in with product design. If it makes no sense to me, my belief is I need to make it much easier (the company making the product) for the consumer. Some things cannot be made easy , I understand, BUT.....
Thanks again all. I will respond in a day or two as soon as I read and attempt all of this.
Larry |
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pH7_jp1
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 480
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My feeling is to pre-program the remote for the normal functions, so for example when you hit the DVD button all inputs and functions automatically switch over to DVD and you are ready to rock and roll. |
This is exactly what I have done with 3 different JP1 remotes. It makes it very easy for other family members to use a system that might be quite complicated otherwise.
There was a good discussion kicked off by this message in the archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jp1/message/28309
This started with a detailed description of one person's view of how to set up a JP1 remote. Other people chimed in with their own ideas. |
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mr_d_p_gumby
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 1370
Location: Newbury Park, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: You guys are the BEST!!!!! |
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| lafrederick wrote: | | And I totally agree with whomever said the the URC Product guy's are NOT thinking about the consumer NOR how any real human being would use a remote. |
I'm not sure I can agree with this statement. Yes, UEI has produced a lot of "duds", but they do have their good moments: case in point is the RS 15-1994.
You seem to be maligning the UEI remotes based on your perceived difficulty in using the JP1 interface & software. You do know that the manufacurer of these remotes does not support consumer use of the JP1 interface, don't you? They do not support any of the hardware or software connected with this group.
| lafrederick wrote: | | It needs to be WAY easier. Cause if it is tough for me, what about Joe Schmo out there?? |
You will find that many people here have set up UEI remotes for parents, in-laws, friends and other non-technical users with great success. Yes, UEI's documentation is rather poor and confusing, but JP1 and the knowledge assembled here allows us to overcome such obstacles.
I don't think it is realistic to assume Joe Schmo is going to have any knowledge of JP1 and how to use it. That's your job. But what exactly are your criteria for this remote? I think we all get that ease of use is one factor, and that cost is somewhat secondary.
Whether the Pronto is "easier" than a UEI remote or not is debatable. The Pronto seems easy at first, but generally requires a lot of effort to make it intuitive to use. You may consider it better at this point, but Joe is going to have a different opinion after his 3-year old son/daughter drops it a few times and tries to flush it down the toilet after their dog Spot chews on it. The UEI remotes have an advantage here in that they are easily replaced and all of your programming effort is easily restored. And, considering the cost differential between a Pronto and a typical UEI remote, you could probably afford to supply a spare remote with the system.
As has been stated more than once in this thread, once the light bulb turns on, you'll find that JP1 is not so difficult to understand. Many of the discussions here pertain to problems people are having. Remember that many other users never even post a question here because they did not have a problem.
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Mike England |
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wwwoholic
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_d_p_gumby wrote: | | I'm not sure I can agree with this statement. Yes, UEI has produced a lot of "duds", but they do have their good moments: case in point is the RS 15-1994. |
Let me clarify my comment. I'm not criticizing the remote. Don't know about others but in my 2116 the electronics and body design are great. This means that those low-level working horses (engineers) did their job all right. But! But there was some "genius" in the usability group who decided that Power button should be excluded from learning. There was somebody in the marketing who saved 2 cents per remote by limiting eeprom to ludicrous size. And there also was some manager who decided that customer support for JP1 is a luxury they can not afford. Well, for the latter we should actually be thankful. Otherwise salespeople at the RS would run around with Simple interface, wistfully eyeing customers for some place to plug it in.
Bottom line: the main problem for the consumers is that they are viewed as merely imperfect transportation devices for their wallets. Bells and whistles (like "TFT screen built in $6,000.00 processor") are used to lure as much of them as possible, instead of through use case examination. |
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| wwwoholic wrote: | | Well, for the latter we should actually be thankful. |
Yeah, or none of us would even be here 
| Quote: | | Otherwise salespeople at the RS would run around with Simple interface, wistfully eyeing customers for some place to plug it in. |
Most likely, the salesmen would be wearing them as ties 
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lafrederick
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:29 pm Post subject: The Dolt is BACK!!!!! |
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Hey Mark I did what you said, and did my first extender.(updater) Whooo Whooo!
How do I do a loo.o.nng key press power on and power off for ALL devices? Is there a "thread " here some where that discusses that?
And I read the stuff on toadtogs. Whoa! Still confusing, but..getting there.
What is up with the $ and stuff?
Now I just need to get the macros started so I can just key DVD and have inputs switch etc and then be ready to "Rock and Roll." And hit a LONG>G>G power button and have all turn off (OR on!)
Can you send me to another thread that may help???
By the way..thanks again. I actually like my 8910 a lot. Maybe if I can figure this out I can help a bud get his 8 remotes into one?
Never know Learning a little more every day. Figured out how to program the remote for the correct functions of each device and downloaded them into IR(Oh Wow! HUh!) And then put them into KM. With your guidance,,,It Was very simple ..actually.
Looked at RM, seems better than KM in that you can see the buttons on the remote. Haven't fooled with it yet. Got to get IR and KM down first.
I am a very VISUAL guy (as I suspect many people are)
Thanks again. I'll be BACK!!!
Larry |
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