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JP1 Remotes
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The Robman Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 21240 Location: Chicago, IL |
Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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EEPROM remotes are fine, you can't mess up the ROM because it's read-only, and even if you completely mess up the EEPROM you can always reset it, but Flash remotes are vulnerable. People did brick their JP1.3 remotes by using a JP1.1 cable in the past. _________________ Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have done further investigation of the situations that the new interfaces are not designed for, and I think I have now made it pretty bombproof. There are essentially two JP1.1 cable types, one with pin2=RTS, pin5=GND (standard cable with pins 3 and 5 connected), the other with pin2=DTR, pin5=RTS, as pin3=GND, pin4=TXD, pin6=RXD are common to both. There are two interface types, the standard JP1.x Serial and the new JP11USB. The intention is the first cable with the first interface type, the second cable with the second interface type, but it is easy to get the wrong pairing. So I have now tested all four pairings with each of eight remote interfaces: JP1.1 (SST), JP1.2 (HCS08), JP1.3 (S3F80), JP1.4 (also S3F80), JP2 (MAXQ610), JP3 (MAXQ612), JP3.1(TI2541) and the GP541 processor which we did not give a JP number to.
Pin2=RTS, pin5=GND with JP1.x Serial downloaded all remotes except JP1.2. I think JP1.2 gets left in BKGD mode, it needs the batteries removed and reinserted to reset it (without loss of data). The only difference from this and a standard cable without pin5 connected is that the standard cable works with JP1.2 but not with JP1.1, the opposite being the case with pin5 = GND.
Pin2=RTS, pin5=GND with JP11USB, a mismatch, downloads JP1.1 but no others. All remotes are left in normal working condition except JP1.2 which again needs the batteries removed and replaced.
Pin2=DTR, pin5=RTS with JP11USB downloads JP1.1, JP1.2 and JP1.3. All others are left in normal working condition.
Pin2=DTR, pin5=RTS with JP1.x Serial, a mismatch, fails on all remotes. Again, all remotes are left in normal working condition except JP1.2 which again needs the batteries removed and replaced.
I am pretty sure that pin 5 is not internally connected in JP1.4 and higher remotes. Those remotes that have an external 5-pin socket do not even have a pin corresponding to pin 5 of the 6-pin connector. For the JP1.3 tests I used an RCRP05B, which 3FG told me is one of the remotes that is prone to being damaged by interfaces with pin 5 connected. It had no problems in any test.
I did need one final tweak to the code to be confident that it was safe for JP1.3 in the mismatch situations, but these results now assure me that no warning messages will be needed. The worst that can happen is that the batteries need to be taken out and replaced, and that only for JP1.2 remotes. _________________ Graham |
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Tommy Tyler Expert
Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 412 Location: Denver mountains |
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Way to go, Graham ! Your methodical investigation and solution of this problem, although far over my ability to comprehend, is impressive. I think you are evolving into a skilled circuit designer as well as a software genius.
Tommy Tyler |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Wow, Tommy, it is really great to hear from you and to know that you are still around. Many thanks for the compliments, even if they are not deserved . _________________ Graham |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:48 am Post subject: |
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I have now received this adapter and can report mixed results. With the new JP11USB interface it downloads JP1.1 (which is what it was bought for) but not JP1.2 or JP1.3, even though the 10-core FTDI cable configured for JP11USB downloads all three interface types. I have also tried this new adapter with the leads configured for JP1.x Serial and it still does not download JP1.2 (didn't try JP1.3, but presume the same for that).
I don't think we have any previous experience of the CP2102N chip but this suggests to me that it works with EEPROMs but not with Flash. I do not understand the difference between the various chips that do USB-to-Serial conversion, so cannot speculate on whether there is any reason this might be so. Perhaps someone who understands these better might know why the CP2102N behaves in the way it appears to do. For what it is worth, that adapter is now $10, it was $13 when I bought it . _________________ Graham |
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3FG Expert
Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 3368
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Graham,
We have lots of negative experience with the 2101 and 2102. Kevin Timmermann clearly illustrated one of the problems when using these with JP1.2 or JP1.3 remotes--these chips don't handle Break in the way we expect.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=104783
I believe the chips also may have difficulty with at least the MAXQ micros, even though JP2 and JP1.4 don't use a Break signal. In this latter case I suspect (but don't actually know) it is an issue with a different behavior for the stop bits. |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Dave, many thanks for that link. Now that I know that the issue is that Break is not being sent, I did some googling and found this data sheet for the CP2102N dated November 2020 and this errata sheet dated March 2019. The errata sheet includes
Quote: | CP2102N revision A02 includes the following new features:
* Send break and stop break command signalling |
The data sheet revision notes for revision 1.3, March 2019, say
Quote: | * Added section 4.2.2 Sending Break Signaling describing how to send line breaks |
and section 4.2.2 says
Quote: | The CP2102N supports break signaling with an external 10k Ohm resistor between TXD and ground. This resistor is sufficient for break signaling across all baud rates.
When a Send Break command is received, the CP2102N halts adding new data to the transmitter FIFO and will wait 6 byte times for in-flight data to complete transmission. ... Once the 6 byte time has expired, the CP2102N places the TXD line in a high-impedance state - ignoring flow control status - and the external resistor pulls down TXD to initiate a break. |
The chip in the photos on the website for my adapter is marked CP2102N A01ISR. On my actual adapter it is CP2102N A021WX. If I understand the datasheet correctly, the A is the hardware revision, the 01 or 02 is the firmware revision. So it looks to me as if the break signalling was added after the board of the adapter was designed, which makes me believe it does not have that 10k resistor but my adapter has the firmware revision that supports it. It's a very long time since I had any resistors but I will see if I can get a 10k resistor and connect it between the TXD and GND terminals of the board to see if by any chance it does resolve the problem. _________________ Graham |
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3FG Expert
Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 3368
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Graham,
That's interesting. It does seem like adding the 10K resistor will allow the chips with newer version firmware to work with JP1.2 or JP1.3 remotes.
I may be reading the datasheet differently. It seems to say that the firmware version is not indicated on the chip labeling (pages 36, 40, and 44). On the other hand, the date code is shown, so I suppose that one may be able to infer if the firmware is newer than the break revision. |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Dave, I didn't look at that part of the datasheet and assumed that the A02 was the revision code. The date code on my chip is 2104 A, so it is hardware revision A from the 4th week of 2021. I think it is therefore safe to assume that this is A02. I have resistors ordered that should come tomorrow, so should soon know if it works. _________________ Graham |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:16 am Post subject: |
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mathdon wrote: | I think it is therefore safe to assume that this is A02. I have resistors ordered that should come tomorrow, so should soon know if it works. |
It does . With the 10k resistor between TXD and GND and the connections configured for the JP11USB interface (i.e. with both DTR and RTS), this adapter downloads all of JP1.1, JP1.2 and JP1.3, which is all that the JP11USB interface supports. I will try configuring it for the jp12serial interface to see if it works with JP1.4 and higher, but that was not my intention for this adapter so I am happy now that it does everything that I initially hoped it would do. _________________ Graham |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I have now configured the connections of this adapter for use with JP12Serial (Pin2=RTS, Pin 5 disconnected) and tested downloading every type of processor UEI has used. 100% SUCCESS . To be specific, besides JP1.2 and JP1.3 which I have already reported works with the 10k resistor between TXD and GND, I have successfully downloaded:
JP1.4 URC7145 (Samsung S3F80)
JP2 Atlas 1056B03 (Maxim MAXQ610)
JP3 URC7962 (Maxim MAXQ612)
JP3.1 URC7980 (Texas Instruments CC2541)
JP2.2 URC2068BC2 (GreenPeak GP541)
Only JP1.2 and JP1.3 need the resistor (although I did leave it connected for all the tests), and apart from that resistor, all that is needed to connect the pins of the adapter to the remote are some patch cables. So all in all, I regard this as a very successful purchase at its current price of $10. _________________ Graham |
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The Robman Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 21240 Location: Chicago, IL |
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent news Graham, great work!!!
Just for the sake of completion, do you happen to have an EEPROM adapter and an old JP1 remote, just to confirm that it works with the adapter too (though I don't see any reason why it wouldn't). _________________ Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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mathdon Expert
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 4523 Location: Cambridge, UK |
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: |
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The Robman wrote: | Just for the sake of completion, do you happen to have an EEPROM adapter and an old JP1 remote, just to confirm that it works with the adapter too |
Yes, I have them and much to my surprise I find that it doesn't work with the EEPROM adapter. The adapter is one of Tommy's originals, not the DIYGadget one. I tested the EEPROM adapter with the JP1 remote with an FTDI cable to make sure that it was still OK, and that worked OK so it does seem to be something to do with this CP2102N chip that stops it working. I have no understanding of how the EEPROM adapter works, so cannot hazard a guess as to what might be wrong. Perhaps 3FG or Tommy can shed any light on this? _________________ Graham |
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The Robman Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 21240 Location: Chicago, IL |
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: |
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That's curious for sure. Does the EEPROM adapter work with the original C232HD-EDHSP-0 cable that you made? In other words, is the problem specific to the CP2102N cable? _________________ Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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3FG Expert
Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 3368
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Graham,
Do you have a connection from +5 or +3.3 to pin1 of the adapter's flash side? There's a micro (pic12HV609) inside the adapter, and it needs power. In contrast, most remotes don't need a +V connection from the USB to serial converter because they use their batteries for power. |
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