Choosing my first JP1 remote

[The Robman]

Sorry to side track the conversation Jez...

Graham, the OARUSB04G doesn't have a PVR device button, at least that one I got doesn't, it just has TV, STB, DVD and AUDIO.

And why use the LIST button for shift when it has a SETUP button?

[JezW]

Hi Graham, thanks for your responses, they're really helpful.

If I only have three devices and a flirc dongle (and my amplifier codes will require learning) will device upgrades create much more work? I would prefer the remote in black but if you're telling me it's not a good idea (for reasons I probably don't understand) then I'll take your word for it.

One last question - should I install the extender straight away before I start programming? This way, I won't need to reprogram buttons after installing the extender?

[JezW]

Ha, no problem. I hadn't even seen your post on page 2 when I was writing mine.

[The Robman]

Hi Graham, thanks for your responses, they're really helpful.

If I only have three devices and a flirc dongle (and my amplifier codes will require learning) will device upgrades create much more work? I would prefer the remote in black but if you're telling me it's not a good idea (for reasons I probably don't understand) then I'll take your word for it.

One last question - should I install the extender straight away before I start programming? This way, I won't need to reprogram buttons after installing the extender?

Many of us load upgrades for all of our devices anyway, even if they are built in codes, just to avoid using keymoves to program the missing buttons, so having to load an upgrade for each of your 4 devices won't be a problem.

Why do you say your amp will need learning, is it an unusual brand? What is the model and brand of it?

Personally, I would recommend starting slow, walk before you run, so I would recommend getting used to the remote as it is right out of the box, before you start adding the extender, but others my have different thoughts on that. It's really a question of what you are comfortable with.

[JezW]

Many of us load upgrades for all of our devices anyway, even if they are built in codes, just to avoid using keymoves to program the missing buttons, so having to load an upgrade for each of your 4 devices won't be a problem.

Sorry Rob, I'm struggling to understand this.

Device upgrade: "This is a setup code that was added after the remote was manufactured"

Keymove: "A keymove is a way to reassign the function of a particular button"

My amp is a Roksan Kandy K2 integrated amplifier
http://www.roksan.co.uk/kandy-k2-integr ... ifier.html

Codes seem to be non existent online. I've even spoken to Roksan and they said that a company in Taiwan supplies the remotes and communicating software for the amplifiers and they do not give the codes to Roksan.

It's one of the main reasons I'd like a JP1 remote with state tracking - I won't be able to find discrete codes for the amp.

[3FG]

I expect that your Samsung TV does support discrete codes. To find out for sure, besides having a JP1 type remote, one way to directly test for discrete function is to use a smartphone or table that has an IR emitter. I have a Samsung phone (Android) and the application irplus allowed me to test. After installation, I added a Samsung TV as a device--I choose the first TV on the list. That brought up a remote display, and I used my IR Widget to verify that it sends standard Samsung NECx1, device 7 signals.

At the upper left of the screen, the icon with 3 horizontal lines gave me access to a menu, and I selected Edit. In Edit mode, I pressed the "1" button, and that gave me an Edit screen which says (among other things) NECx1 0xE0E0 0x20DF. I changed the 20DF to 9966, clicked the check mark at upper right to accept the change and exit Edit Mode, and shot the resulting signal at the Widget. The resulting signal is Power On, OBC 153. If you want to follow this approach, I'll post instructions on how to use RemoteMaster to convert e.g. OBC 153 to 9966. Use this RemoteCentral link to see all 256 possible signals.

[tranx]

Again it took me too long to do and missed several posts but...
1.The zip is called 'Remote Master' but also contains 'RMIR', and I have only used the shortcut to that. With RMIR, I can't remember what any differences might be, but nothing much!
2. No.
3. On PC, with RM file unzipped into a folder called 'RM or something' on desktop, clicking 'setup vbs' creates an RMIR shortcut [which can be 'sent to' or copied to somewhere outside the 'RM or something' folder]. You probably don't need the absolute beginners intro: https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... e_id=13466 - but the summaries for RMIR and Extender at the end might still be worth a look!
4. Without the Extender there is no shift button. I haven't tried it but, on the Macro or DSM setup-pages the 'shift' function is listed separately, which might perhaps be used to put a copy of it somewhere else (i.e. this would not have the same effect as a normal key, shifted) or perhaps you could 'keymove' the list button to the same end...advice again please Mathdon! or JezW, you could look through the Extender manual to see more on this.
5. Pressing shift or shift again, cycles through the shift states etc. (see more in the Extender Manual about this). The effect then lasts for a few moments before self-cancelling, so that pressing another button should be done within those moments, and not at the same time as pressing the shift button.

PS
Re. your last Q on second thoughts I think Rob is right about taking it easy by practicing a few things before trying the extender.

Robman, [edited] I think it seemed that, in the Extender, Shift being on the List button seemed a more convenient central position and that the un-shifted 'Setup/WatchTv-combo-button' could be more useful as an extra button, while press-hold of the 'List' button could still also be used for something such as the List function itself.

[JezW]

Thanks 3FG, I'll look into that.

And thanks Tranx, all of that makes sense.

I looked over the beginners intro you linked. What's the difference between macros and activities?

As I understand it..a macro is when one single button press can result in several virtual button presses. So I'm not sure what an activity is then?

Thanks

[3FG]

Rob,
The Simpleset remotes don't have a dedicated Setup button. The primary purpose of the button labeled setup is described inscrutably by the icon on the button face. A short press of this button place the remote into Combo TV mode--once you've specified the details. A long press obtains 2 blinks just like a long press of a setup button. As I recall, there is no way to send EFCs directly by button presses. The Learn button is similar-- its primary purpose is a different Combo mode. So Graham needed a different button to act as Shift.

The URC-6440 and OARUSB04G are nearly identical at the hardware level. Some button labels are different and the device buttons are labeled TV-PVR-DVD-EXTRA or TV-STB-DVD-AUDIO.

JezW,
For your Roksan amp, after you learn the signals, we'll help you to find out which IR protocol is in use, and it will probably turn out that there are only 256 possible signals for that particular protocol. Then you can construct an upgrade for that protocol and device numbers, and try out all the possibilities.

[tranx]

It's the jargon which makes everything seem obscure

Re. Activity buttons [aka 'Combo/Combi-control' buttons for the top left [alternative use, Setup] and top right buttons [alternative use, Copy] on the 6440/OARUSB04G]:
"Pressing such a button would combine the controls [the normal/default functions of certain buttons] from several devices, [selectable under the Activities tab in 4 groups with RMIR, or 10 groups in RMIR with the Extender] to save [possibly] having to switch back and forth between them [i.e. between devices] during the activity"

Re. Macros:
"...strings of commands from[/for] various devices may be strung together in 'macros' to issue them in sequence."

Perhaps the confusing thing is that macros can usefully be put ON the activity buttons, which can add that to the main effect of pressing an activity button which results in first issuing the macro, then mixing the commands from several devices into the button layout. A raw activity could be regarded as being just a sort of mixed device, while e.g. on a Harmony remote, a macro can also be added to the start and/or finish of each 'Activity', but more precisely the macro is not itself really part of the activity. The macro is just part of the Harmony process of setting it up or shutting it down (ready to start another from a 'known state').

[The Robman]

Jez, activities and macros are the same sort of thing, the only difference is in what the remote lets you do in each mode. I really can't speak too much on these two new remotes (ie, the 6440 and the Nevo) because I really haven't done much with them yet and they're very new and different to all JP1 remotes that preceded them.

In our regular JP1 remotes, there was virtually no restriction on what could be included in a macro, and the extenders pretty much eliminate whatever restrictions there might have been. The Nevo doesn't have actual device buttons, so you can't include something that isn't there, in a macro. I don't think the activities/macro question applies to the 6440.

Regarding your amp, you will need to learn the buttons and then post the results for us, and we'll help you build an upgrade, or build one for you, so you will be set there. And just because it's a rare brand doesn't mean that there won't be discrete codes, it just means that they're not known. You can go fishing for them yourself, once we know the signal structure.

I just looked up Roksan using the Lookup Tool and found a couple of CD codes, the good news is that they both use the NEC1 protocol (device code 134.97), which is good because NEC1 is really easy to capture and re-create.

[The Robman]

Sorry Rob, I'm struggling to understand this.

Device upgrade: "This is a setup code that was added after the remote was manufactured"

Keymove: "A keymove is a way to reassign the function of a particular button"

Yes to both. We create our own upgrades and then load them into the remote and they become just another setup code, alongside all the official ones.

And "keymove" is the term that UEI (the parent company) uses for the function that they include in many of their remotes which lets you re-program individual buttons to send a different signal. Officially, it's a method where you can copy (or "move") a function from one button to another, but there is a version of it where you can enter your own code instead.

[tranx]

JezW, along the lines of the points raised I have added some more ideas to the tips in the absolute beginners sheet. Thanks.

[JezW]

So...I'll try and put my understanding of a macro and an activity into my own words:

Macro - A macro is a string of button presses, assigned to one button, which can involve multiple devices.

Activity - By pressing an activity button on the remote, you can effectively "remap" the other buttons on the remote so that they now perform a different function to what they performed previously. This means you can have one activity button for "DVD mode" and one activity button for "TV mode". Or you can have an activity button which combines several devices on the remote if that's your aim.

However, if my explanation of activities is correct...I'm not sure how this works:

The 6440 without an extender has two activities. With the extender, six activities. So if my explanation above is correct, this means that within each one of these activities, keys can have a different function to within another activity.

Therefore one single key can have six functions?

But there's also LKP and DKP....meaning each key could have 6 x 3 = 18 potential functions per key...

Think I've gone wrong somewhere!

Unless...what I was saying is correct, but the LKP and DKP are global functions, which are unaffected by which activity mode the remote is in?

This would mean that with the extender, keys could have 6 + 2 = 8 functions?

I've got more to ask but will leave it there for now before I confuse myself further lol.

I've already downloaded the extender and the pdf and trying to make sense of it. It's very well written and I think once I have the basic knowledge I'll understand a lot more of it.

Thanks for looking that up Robman, once I get going I'd be happy to upload a device file using my Roksan control.

Is there a consensus...stick with the URC 6440 as opposed to the US version OARUSB04G?

[mathdon]

Therefore one single key can have six functions?

But there's also LKP and DKP....meaning each key could have 6 x 3 = 18 potential functions per key...

Think I've gone wrong somewhere!

Well, yes and no. LKP and DKP put two functions on a key, but these are instead of the original function, not as well as. So it is 6 x 2 = 12.

But it isn't the activity that has functions, it is the devices. An activity maps button groups to devices, so in a particular activity you can have the volume keys sent to an AV receiver, the channel and digit keys to the TV and the transport keys (FF, Rewind, Play etc) to the satellite/cable box, for example.

So if you want to see how many functions you can have on one button, with the extender there are 12 devices. Put an LKP or DKP on each and you have two functions per button, so 2 x 12 = 24. But each physical button is three logical buttons (unshifted, shifted and double-shifted) and in principle you can have 24 functions on each of these, giving 3 x 24 = 72 .

This isn't meant as a realistic suggestion but it does show the power of the remote with extender. The number of functions that it can be set up to send is virtually unlimited. The only problem is remembering where they all are .