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One for all cannot learn my device properly - can JP1 help?
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject: One for all cannot learn my device properly - can JP1 help? Reply with quote

Hi folks,

I'm using a URC-7950 & URC-7555 to control an ALBA DVD382STB combined DVD player and Freeview receiver without much luck on the learning from.

OFA have send me codes which do nothing at all.

When I teach the OFA remote commands from the original, I find repeated keypress a problem. After some experimenting and research I suspect the protocol used, possibly NEC-2, includes a flag that toggles on alternate key presses, but I don't know if the OFA remotes support this.

For example, if I teach 1,2,3 on consecutive keystrokes, I can enter 1,2,3 but not 1,1,1 nor 1,3,2

I can change this behavior by teaching every second keystroke where I cannot enter consecutive numbers at all, leading me to believe there are odd and even codes.

Would it be possible to download the learned device table using JP1, amend the protocol to support this behavior and upload it back to the remote, or am I stuffed so to speak with this device?

Thanks
Gordon
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vickyg2003
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Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7050
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My motorola TV has a toggling bit protocol. If I learn the signals they only work once. However if I create a device upgrade, the toggling works pretty well. Sometimes the remote and device get out of synch and I have to press a button more than once to get it to work. That really isn't a problem except for in macros. So the answer is yes, you can handle this by creating an upgrade instead of using learned signals.

Good Luck
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: One for all cannot learn my device properly - can JP1 he Reply with quote

gtg wrote:
I'm using a URC-7950 & URC-7555



I don't recall, and didn't look up, what level of JP1 support exists for those. I'm sure you can find that info somewhere on this site.

gtg wrote:
When I teach the OFA remote commands from the original, I find repeated keypress a problem. After some experimenting and research I suspect the protocol used, possibly NEC-2, includes a flag that toggles on alternate key presses, but I don't know if the OFA remotes support this.


There are several protocols that include toggle bits, causing exactly the behavior you reported. NEC-2 is NOT one of those protocols. RC5 is the most common of those protocols and very likely the one your device uses.

OFA remotes do support the correct operation of the toggle bits in those protocols, but not for learned signals. It will behave correctly if you use a built-in setup code or an upgrade or keymoves based on either (in other words, for all methods of programming the signal other than learning).

gtg wrote:

For example, if I teach 1,2,3 on consecutive keystrokes, I can enter 1,2,3 but not 1,1,1 nor 1,3,2

I can change this behavior by teaching every second keystroke where I cannot enter consecutive numbers at all, leading me to believe there are odd and even codes.


Very good analysis. Most people just get confused over those symptoms and don't test carefully enough to see what is really happening.

gtg wrote:

Would it be possible to download the learned device table using JP1,


I'd say yes for sure if you were using OFA models I recognized. You may need to look up whether you can download learned signals by JP1 from your OFA models.

gtg wrote:
amend the protocol to support this behavior


No need to amend the protocol. You copy the protocol name, device number and the OBC number of each function from the learned signals tab of IR.exe to the KM or RM program to build a new upgrade the usual way. The fact that the signals have a toggle bit doesn't matter to that process.

You might prefer to post the protocol name, device number and a few OBC-function pairs. Likely someone will tell you a built-in setup code number for it and/or an upgrade file already posted in our file area. That could save you some effort (at the cost of a short wait for someone to reply).
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback. There is hope then.

I believe the URC-7950 is a JP1.2 device but no luck so far sourcing a cable in the UK.

I have done some searching without any luck, and scanning through all the build in codes using the one-for-all search method has not thrown up any tables that work. At best I found 6 or so tables where the power function triggers "channel up" but nothing else works and they all suffer the same lack of repeat problem.

As soon as I can get my hands on the hardware I'll have a go.

Thanks again
Gordon
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gtg wrote:
I have done some searching without any luck, and scanning through all the build in codes using the one-for-all search method has not thrown up any tables that work. At best I found 6 or so tables where the power function triggers "channel up" but nothing else works


That is enough for what we call "partially working".

If you tell us which built-in setup code partially works, we can deduce much more from that than you might expect.

With KeyMoves, you may be able to fix a setup code that partially works, without needing a JP1 cable.

gtg wrote:
and they all suffer the same lack of repeat problem.


That is very strange. Do you really mean pressing power once causes channel up, then pressing it again doesn't do another channel up?

That would be quite unlikely if pressing power were sending one signal from a built-in setup code. I wonder if you have some macro on the power button that is confusing things.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you really mean pressing power once causes channel up, then pressing it again doesn't do another channel up?


Indeed - thought the search method should issue power commands....

DVD code 0352 - I get channel up, which will repeat after a number is pressed, although the number has no effect on the device, also channel down gives channel down.

SAT code 1698 - I get channel down, which will repeat after a number is pressed, although the number has no effect on the device. Nothing else has any effect on the device.

There are some other if you need more info....
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binky123
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1292

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We only have info on the URC-7555 JP1.2 remote. Which codes on the URC-7555 remote generate some response? Use SET-990 to blink back the setup code the code search found.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

URC-7555 SAT code 1908

Power = channel up
Channel down = channel down
#3 = channel down
#9 = channel up


Irratic repeats, generally another keypress is required, but sometimes 3 or 4 repeats occur with #3 and #9 ?? Not consistant though.
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binky123
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, that code is NEC dev=128 subdev=100. It seems to use the same codes as Grundig according to this upgrade.

On the URC-7555, TV/1908, TV/1916, VCR/0352, VCR/0742 use the same device/subdevice pair.

Hopefully, you can use the upgrade to find other OBC codes that work and use keymoves to invoke them.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, that gives me something to go on....
I'll post back with any updates or progress.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those setup codes are NEC2 protocol, device 128, subdevice 100.

I've never heard of NEC2 protocol including a toggle bit, yet the symptoms described earlier in this thread pretty clearly indicate a toggle bit.

Neither an NEC2 upgrade, nor KeyMoves based on one of those setup codes would not include a toggle bit.

If this device really does use a toggle bit in a Protocol that normally has no toggle bit, then the KeyMoves or upgrade would act just like the learned signals.

With a bit more info, one of the experts could construct a modified protocol to make NEC2 have a toggle bit.

But I'm not yet convinced that what you seem to be seeing is what is really there.
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vickyg2003
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Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually this erratic behavior could be the result of failing batteries. Thats the way my last battery failure first manifested itself. It would drop some key presses.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it helps, batteries have been replaced with a quality brand and the behaviour is identical on both remotes.

Also, if I block the remote output, press a key then unblock after several seconds, the command is seen by the device indicating that the command is being repeated continuously.

I'm sure I have read that the NEC2 protocol can include a toggle bit to discriminate between a break in transmission and a subsequent keypress, but cannot confirm that for now.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I'm not yet convinced that what you seem to be seeing is what is really there.


Further tests on toggling included learning separate key presses of the same key onto different keys and then entering 1,1,1 was possible using the 1st and 2nd learned keys.

Learned keys show 100% consistancy when toggling is assumed, so I'm 100% confident about toggling.

However regarding protocol, I think it more likely that the device uses a less robust protocol and is responding to the NEC2 transmission in error, given that so far the only functions I can trigger with any stored profile are CH up & down.
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gtg



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this discussion on remotes triggering functions on the wrong devices.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=652173&highlight=remote
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