JP1 Remotes

Posted: **Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:01 pm**

Hi,

I've got all my devices setup in my remote but I need to install an extender as i've used some of the keys you can't use without it (Fav etc).

I'm following the install.txt file but i'm getting this when running install.bat:

C:\Documents and Settings\Ian Chilton\Desktop\Stuff\JP1\IR620>extinstall 8910ex1
.hex "IC - URC 8910.txt" "IC - URC 8910 - Ex.txt"
Couldn't fit upgrade ID 0x140 (320)

C:\Documents and Settings\Ian Chilton\Desktop\Stuff\JP1\IR620>pause
Press any key to continue . . .

What have I done wrong?

Thanks

Ian

Posted: **Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:18 pm**

Post a copy of your "before" IR image, it sounds like you have too many upgades loaded already.

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:18 am**

Yeah, what Rob said, BUT first...

Why are you using install.bat? It's much simpler to use IR.exe directly.

Section (5)(b) of THIS FAQ explains:

(b) Converting an existing IR file.

(i) .....
What follows MAY CONTRADICT many of the extender readme's out there, since this MERGE capability in IR is newer than many extenders. You need not "RUN" this program, as current versions of IR can automatically convert your unextended IR file into an extended one by calling this program.

(ii) In IR, go to File>Set Directory and ensure you have IR looking for Extinstall.exe in the right place.

(iii) Open your current IR file (should be unextended).

(iv) Go to File>Merge using Extinstall

(v) In the dialogue box, navigate to the folder where you unzipped the extender zip file and select the correct .hex file (i.e. 6012-2K-3.hex)

(vi) Give your new IR file a name and you're done.

(vii) NOW you start adding all of your extra keymoves, building all of your Special Protocol keymoves and Macros, etc.

Although the extender converts most of your learning memory into keymove/maacro memory, your upgrade memory size remains unchanged. So if you already have quite a few upgrades in your IR file, converting to the extender file can push you over the top, since the extender installation inserts a handful of device and protocol upgrades.

Code: Select all

VCR or MISC/1800:0181 ToadTog 
TV or MISC/1101:01FE Device Multiplexer 
TV or MISC/1103:01FC Device Specific Macro 
TV or MISC/1104:01FB Pause 
TV or MISC/1106:01F9 Long/Double Keypress 
TV or MISC/1107:01F8 Custom Mode Name (for LCD display)

Having said that, If I'm not mistaken, IR will (despite warning you about exceeding the memory capacity of your remote) still keep all of the data you've added to the IR.exe file, so you can go to the Device and protocol upgrade sections and selectively delete upgrades/Special protocols you don't need (like Device Multiplexer and/or Pause) until you are within memory limits. If such selective purging doesn't get you within the upgrade memory limit, there may be ways to substitute for one or more of your device upgrades with more efficient upgrades, or by using a built-in setup code supplemented with keymoves, to free up some upgrade memory.

Posting a zip containing your IR file as well as your upgrade files can allow someone to take a look and advise you how this might be accomplished.

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:50 am**

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.

I did get a warning about something been too big when I added my last device/protocol - however I stopped getting this after installing the extender so I assumed the extra usable memory it gives fixed it.

I'll try the new way of installing next time - I was just following the readme.

I've posted all of my files in a zip file here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=4617

All the RM files i've made/changed are in there but the main files you'll be interested in are:
IC - URC 8910.ir - My original IR file with my devices in
IC - URC 8910 - Ex.ir - The one after installing the extender
(there are also .txt versions in there)

I already removed all the protocols and devices which the extender added (apart from the TV 1800 one it said not to remove) as the only reason I needed the extender is because I used some of the buttons you can't map without it (FAV etc wasn't it?).

I would prefer to be able to get into the menu's and preferably learn - is there any way I can use those extra buttons, get all of my devices in there AND still be able to use the menu + learning?

As you can see from the files, my devices (and RM files) as as follows:
TV -> Compacks TV IC.rmdu (Cheap 15" LCD TV)
AMP -> Panasonic SA-PM32DB IC.rmdu (Mini Hifi Unit)
SAT -> Sky Digibox IC.rmdu (Grundig Sky Box)
VCR -> Topfield TF5800PVR for 8910 IC.rmdu (PVR)
DVD -> Samsung HR730.rmdu (DVD Recorder)
AUX -> Logitech-Slim Devices Squeezebox 3.rmdu (Music Player)

Thanks again for your help.

Ian

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:02 am**

Well, it's hard to sort out which device upgrades you are using in which file, as there are multiple using the extender rdf for several of the devices, and multiple non-extender upgrades for some devices, but regardless, my VERY cursory examination yileds few obvious gains to be had - aside from one.

The TV and Topfield upgrades are pretty small - not much to gain there - although I would check devices.xls to see if there is a built-in setup code that will work and then supplement with keymoves (room for which you have aplenty);
The Sky box requires the protocol upgrade, so you have no option to shrink there either;
The Panasonic receiver is big combo upgrade, but looking at the number of subdevices you use, it may be your only option there;
I WOULD, however, take a look at the Samsung and Logitech upgrades.

SAMSUNG: You are apparently using a manual settings protocol you found somewhere in the file section for the Samsung. Have you tried learning any of the Samsung signals and decoding them to see if you can build an upgrade that does NOT require a manual settings protocol? Do an MFR reset of your 8910, learn as many of the Samsung functions as you can and take a look at how they decode in IR. If not apparent how to build an upgrade from those data (or it doesn't decode), post the learned IR file with a link here and maybe one of our gurus can sort it out.

LOGITECH: You are using an unnecessarily large protocol upgrade. If I read your RM file correctly, although you are using the NEC Combo protocol, you are using NONE of its specific features, as all of your functions use the basic NEC1:110 Protocol:Device (blank subdevice) setting. Just switch the protocol for that upgrade from NEC Combo to NEC1 (make sure to re-enter the Device number) and you will eliminate the need for a protocol upgrade and cut your device upgrade almost in half (1-byte vs. 2-byte functions). When I took your UNEXTENDED IR file and replaced those device and protocol upgrades with the device upgrade that resulted from switching that protocol executor, and THEN "merge(d) using extinstall" I ended up with 25 bytes of upgrade space remaining, whilst RETAINING all of the special protocols of the extender.

I would do that and if that's all of your devices, then you're set, and you have a LOT of extra keymove memory left over to build those Device selection Long Keypress macros on your Device buttons that you KNOW you really want and other stuff, too - customizing your LCD display, etc.

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:09 am**

ichilton wrote: I would prefer to be able to get into the menu's and preferably learn - is there any way I can use those extra buttons, get all of my devices in there AND still be able to use the menu + learning?

Referring again to the Extender FAQ referenced above:

(4) The extender disables learning on my remote. How do I cope with this loss of capability?
The loss of learning capability is one of the downsides of using an extender. However, this is not really a loss of learning capability. It is merely the loss of the ability to USE learned signals DIRECTLY from your remote.

Learning is primarily required exclusively to learn and decode a new OEM remote control. You then use these data to build a device upgrade, or assign extra functions as keymoves, so that you never have to actually use the directly learned signal.

If you add a new device to your system, you simply de-activate the extender, learn and decode what you need (experts are standing by on this forum to help with bizarre decodes for your remote pet-feeding system or beer-delivery conveyor belt), build your new upgrade and add it to your remote, and reactivate the extender for routine operation of the remote.

The huge increase in Keymove and Macro memory that you gain far offsets the inability to use learned signals.

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:46 am**

Hi,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to look at my files and post - it's really appreciated.

Capn Trips wrote:Well, it's hard to sort out which device upgrades you are using in which file, as there are multiple using the extender rdf for several of the devices, and multiple non-extender upgrades for some devices

Sorry, i'm not quite sure what you mean but this. Do you mean in RM, I need to go through all of my devices and select the 8910 with extender as the device rather than the 8910(New) one?

If so, I didn't realise this would make a difference if the device was not using the extra buttons the extender gives.

The TV and Topfield upgrades are pretty small - not much to gain there - although I would check devices.xls to see if there is a built-in setup code that will work and then supplement with keymoves (room for which you have aplenty);

Ah, ok. I've just found that in the file area - so I assume I just see if there are any with the same protocol and device code?

If there are, how do I proceed? - is it just a case of putting it into the remote and pressing all the buttons to seeing what does what, then moving them to the right place? - or is there a quicker and more precise way of doing it on the computer?

SAMSUNG: You are apparently using a manual settings protocol you found somewhere in the file section for the Samsung. Have you tried learning any of the Samsung signals and decoding them to see if you can build an upgrade that does NOT require a manual settings protocol?

The Samsung was a right nightmare!!

I spent ages and ages trying to learn but I just couldn't get sane results - I just keep getting 3 lines with funny Gap protocols. In the end I did a search on the forum and found this thread, where they were having exactly the same problem:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewt ... sung+hr725

When I tried the protocol and device from there it worked so I just loaded the KM file into RM and re-arranged the buttons to my taste.

LOGITECH: You are using an unnecessarily large protocol upgrade. If I read your RM file correctly, although you are using the NEC Combo protocol, you are using NONE of its specific features, as all of your functions use the basic NEC1:110 Protocol:Device (blank subdevice) setting. Just switch the protocol for that upgrade from NEC Combo to NEC1 (make sure to re-enter the Device number) and you will eliminate the need for a protocol upgrade and cut your device upgrade almost in half (1-byte vs. 2-byte functions).

Ahh, oops!

I selected the combo one because when I learned the signals it had both NEC/NEC1 and NEC2 protocols so I just selected combo.

I didn't realise the choice of protocol there would affect the size (or indeed size would be so much of a problem).

I'll defiantly change that and try again.

I would do that and if that's all of your devices, then you're set, and you have a LOT of extra keymove memory left over to build those Device selection Long Keypress macros on your Device buttons that you KNOW you really want and other stuff, too - customizing your LCD display, etc.

Yeah, that's all my devices for now but I could well need more in the future!

I havn't yet read up on the extra features of the extender yet so I dont know what "Device selection Long Keypress macros" are or what you can do with the display. Where is the best place to read about that and other cool stuff you can do now i've got it all working with my devices?

On the extender - I see the FAQ you refer to now - thanks. I should have found that and read it earlier!

I dont see in there how to disable the extender though - do you just have to re-upload from IR but not press the power button to activate it?

Obviously you can't do learning with an extender but is there no way of getting into the menu? - the SET button doesn't seem to work any more.

Thanks Again!

Ian

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:04 am**

ichilton wrote: Sorry, i'm not quite sure what you mean but this. Do you mean in RM, I need to go through all of my devices and select the 8910 with extender as the device rather than the 8910(New) one?

If so, I didn't realise this would make a difference if the device was not using the extra buttons the extender gives.

No. I finally figured out that for most of your components, you included the upgrade which you got from the file section AND the upgrade after you had modified it for your 8910. Whether it's using the 8910 or 8910 extender rdf only makes a difference as you correctly point out, insofar as it makes available other buttons (including xShifted ones)

The TV and Topfield upgrades are pretty small - not much to gain there - although I would check devices.xls to see if there is a built-in setup code that will work and then supplement with keymoves (room for which you have aplenty);
Ah, ok. I've just found that in the file area - so I assume I just see if there are any with the same protocol and device code?

If there are, how do I proceed? - is it just a case of putting it into the remote and pressing all the buttons to seeing what does what, then moving them to the right place? - or is there a quicker and more precise way of doing it on the computer?

That's about it, although there will usually be a llimited number of "matches" for Protocol, Device, Subdevice and also be resident in YOUR remote. I haven't done such a comparison for your files yet (no time) but what you describe is the brute force method. But you need not do the keymoves on the remote, you can do them directly in IR, calling on the correct Device Code in the Keymove Tab - even if that Device Code is not assigned to any device.

SAMSUNG: You are apparently using a manual settings protocol you found somewhere in the file section for the Samsung. Have you tried learning any of the Samsung signals and decoding them to see if you can build an upgrade that does NOT require a manual settings protocol?
The Samsung was a right nightmare!!

I spent ages and ages trying to learn but I just couldn't get sane results - I just keep getting 3 lines with funny Gap protocols. In the end I did a search on the forum and found this thread, where they were having exactly the same problem:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewt ... sung+hr725

When I tried the protocol and device from there it worked so I just loaded the KM file into RM and re-arranged the buttons to my taste.

Yeah, since that appears to be a one-off made by Rob, I suspect that there is no built-in protocol for that DVD-R, so that upgrade may also be impossible to make better. However, even if your learns appear bad (assuming proper learning technique and good batteries in both remotes), the smart guys here can decypher them from an IR file you download, so it doesn't hurt to give it a try. But it sounds like that HR725 uses the same signal set, so they may not be able to do better. BUT if your HR730 OEM remote has functions that are not reflected in that HR725 upgrade, then you should learn those anyways and ask for them to be decoded so you can add them to your upgrade.

LOGITECH: You are using an unnecessarily large protocol upgrade. If I read your RM file correctly, although you are using the NEC Combo protocol, you are using NONE of its specific features, as all of your functions use the basic NEC1:110 Protocol:Device (blank subdevice) setting. Just switch the protocol for that upgrade from NEC Combo to NEC1 (make sure to re-enter the Device number) and you will eliminate the need for a protocol upgrade and cut your device upgrade almost in half (1-byte vs. 2-byte functions).
Ahh, oops!

I selected the combo one because when I learned the signals it had both NEC/NEC1 and NEC2 protocols so I just selected combo.

I didn't realise the choice of protocol there would affect the size (or indeed size would be so much of a problem).

I'll defiantly change that and try again.

The decodes could be due to bad learning technique

I would do that and if that's all of your devices, then you're set, and you have a LOT of extra keymove memory left over to build those Device selection Long Keypress macros on your Device buttons that you KNOW you really want and other stuff, too - customizing your LCD display, etc.
Yeah, that's all my devices for now but I could well need more in the future!

I havn't yet read up on the extra features of the extender yet so I dont know what "Device selection Long Keypress macros" are or what you can do with the display. Where is the best place to read about that and other cool stuff you can do now i've got it all working with my devices?

The Extender ReadMe and the FAQ I referenced several times now.

On the extender - I see the FAQ you refer to now - thanks. I should have found that and read it earlier!

I dont see in there how to disable the extender though - do you just have to re-upload from IR but not press the power button to activate it?

Obviously you can't do learning with an extender but is there no way of getting into the menu? - the SET button doesn't seem to work any more.

Thanks Again!

Ian

Well, what do you need to get into the menu for? You do everything you need in IR! But the answer you cannot use the set button to access programming functions when the extender is activated. You CAN, however, use it JUST LIKE ANY OTHER BUTTON! Assign keymoves, macros, whatever, but usually it's left as a shift button (but you can assign ANY BUTTON to be your "shift" button - some people don't like the "set" button on the 8910 because it's recessed). A small price to pay for the extender's capabilities (Fast macros, HUGE amount of Keymove/Macro space, Special Protocols, etc.

As for deactivating the extender, I can't improve on the way I described some months ago, so:

(8) "My remote's locked up and I can't do a reset!" or "Deactivating the Extender"
One of the "features" of most extenders is that they disable the "long-press-to-access-setup-mode" functioning of the "setup" (or "magic" or green "P") button. So if you need to reset your remote, due to whatever reason, you cannot access this function with the extender activated. To deactivate the extender, you have to remove a battery and press any button momentarily. When you reinstall the battery, the extender .ir file will still be loaded in the EEPROM, but the extender will not be activated, and you should be able to access the setup functions. Usually, the only useful function is the MFR reset (which erases your entire EEPROM), since stuff like Keymoves and Learning are all in different portions of the EEPROM in the extended remote than in the unextended, so any other function is likely to have mixed results, at best.

Posted: **Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:13 pm**

Some observations from my experience with 8910 extender, Topfield etc.

To the best of my knowledge you won't find a code built into the 8910 that matches the Toppy (NEC1, Dev32). As stated above, however, it's a small upgrade.

It might be worth just starting with a blank extender loaded into your 8910 and then adding in your upgrades one by one. You can ditch the TOADTOG, Device Multiplexer and Pause protocols as being only required for special cases. I have Custom Mode Name on mine although all it does it allow you to display something like "Toppy" when the appropriate key is pressed.

I'd keep the Device Specific Macros and the LKP as they are really what makes the extender worthwhile.

You might be able to do without some functions for some devices (for instance, do you use the digit keys on your DVD?).

If you usually control volume via your TV then you can set it up as the volume device and shift your other devices' volume functions onto something like Shift-left arrow, Shift-right arrow thus causing them to be KeyMoves.

Later (when you get everything working) I'd personally suggest changing the Power key to send the same signal as the up arrow as it's so easily pressed by mistake and either put power onto Shift-power or have it as a Long Key Press.

Posted: **Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:44 am**

Not really ARGUING here, but providing a different PoV, if you will

underquark wrote:...You can ditch the TOADTOG, Device Multiplexer and Pause protocols as being only required for special cases. I have Custom Mode Name on mine although all it does it allow you to display something like "Toppy" when the appropriate key is pressed.

I'd keep the Device Specific Macros and the LKP as they are really what makes the extender worthwhile.....

I'm not sure that's necessarily an absolute statement. I would argue that what "really ... makes the extender worthwhile" is the fast macro processing, flexibility in keymove/macro assignments and huge increase in keymove/macro memory.

Of the special protocols, the only one I do NOT use is DSM, so it's not quite SO integral as you state with absolute certainty. Different strokes for different folks.

But that's what the beauty of JP1 and the extender is. Each user can customize and do what is most important to him/her.

underquark wrote:...
Later (when you get everything working) I'd personally suggest changing the Power key to send the same signal as the up arrow as it's so easily pressed by mistake and either put power onto Shift-power or have it as a Long Key Press.

I recall you suggesting this previosuly UQ, but I have used this remote for YEARS, and never (nor have my family members) had this problem, nor have I read of others indicating the same difficulty, so I although I don't discount its utility in YOUR case, I wouldn't suggest that it's such an overwhelming and ubiquitous problem.

Fat fingers, perhaps?

Anyways, back to IC - have you had any luck with the altered Logitech upgrade? And has that put you back in the black with upgrade memory or are you still in the red?

Posted: **Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:53 pm**

Not arguing, CapnT, just SHOUTING, eh?

. Tried to qualify my post with the first line ("Some observations from my experience...") meaning just my tuppenceworth.

Fat fingers - yep, agree with you there - big feet, too and zilch patience with myself when I hit the power button by mistake. With one of the devices in question (Topfield DVR) it's a PITA as it takes a minute or so to start up again, particularly if you've customised it with TAPs (user-installed applets that give this device a cult following in the UK, Finland, Oz, Germany etc.).

I'm amazed you don't use DSMs (but then I'm astounded that the RobMan doesn't use extenders at all). As you say, each to his own and the extender really brings out the best in the 8910 for me, my way; for you, your way; and for many others.

ichilton - I'll have a look at your files and, although I'm not an IR expert, I am Scottish and can't abide waste (of money, space, time - you name it).

Incidentally, someone gave me an 8820 and - even in unextended form - I find it controls the Toppy and other devices admirably (Panny TV built-in, Bush DVD built-in on 0209 although not documented in the manual, Philips DVD built-in, Toppy functions learned). I'm just about to try and make a JP1.2 interface for it to really get the benefit.

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:34 pm**

Hi underquark,
So after all these years the Power button still misplaced, eh?
Tell ya what - have you tried just moving the whole thing off the power key? For instance to toggle current DEV_xxx use shift-Exit, and to shut everything down use xshift-Exit, and program Power to a null value OR uparrow since that's what it thinks it is in your hands anyway

One other thing you could do is to just relocate that DVR power to an obscure shifted key. And one minute delay isn't all that bad. I have a DVR that takes three minutes, and at least 3 seconds between commands

Worthless.

JP1 Remotes

8910 Extender Error

8910 Extender Error