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Nokia probs with my philips pronto pro ng tsu7000 (ru980)
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 21

                    
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Nokia probs with my philips pronto pro ng tsu7000 (ru980) Reply with quote

The TV is an european model called Nokia 7176 NICAM. The remote control is named 56521808

As it is now the TV never have reacted at all when i've tried to use ir learnt via my own pronto or with nokia codes downloaded from remotecentral.

From what i know, my Nokia remote control uses the NRC17 protocol, check this page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbp/knowledge/ir/nrc17.htm

There are some settings that i can do in prontoproedit
-----------------------------------
Duration (0.01-10 secs)

RC 5/6/MM ( Choose one from: RC5, RC5x, RC6 mode 0, RC6 mode 6A)

Customer code (n/a)
System (0-31)
Command (0-127)
Data (n/a)

RC/MM mode
Define any basic mode (12 bit) RC/MM code
Mode (0-3)
Adress(0-3)
Data (0-255)
--------------------------------------
Does anyone know what these settings are and if i can set them in any way to get my nokia codes to work?

If noone can help me, maybe someone can give me a tip on who to contact for help?

Warm regards

Stefan
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also edit the raw Pronto hex, which is what you would need to do here.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 21

                    
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok.

If i get you correctly i should read the signal from my original remote, then i should make som changes to the pronto hex before saving?

The hex from reading the signal from the original remote changes when i save the read. From what i understand, it's prontoproedit that changes the code?

How do i know what to change and what shall i put there instead?

Regards

Stefan
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Nokia probs with my philips pronto pro ng tsu7000 (ru980 Reply with quote

bisterfinnen wrote:

As it is now the TV never have reacted at all when i've tried to use ir learnt via my own pronto


Have you gotten signals you learned via your own Pronto to work for other devices? (I'm trying to determine whether you should be asking about Pronto learning teccnique in a more appropriate forum, or whether it really is something about those Nokia signals).

But meanwhile, assuming there is something hard to learn about those signals, we need to see the Pronto Hex of the signals you learned, in order to figure out what the problem is and how to correct it.

bisterfinnen wrote:
or with nokia codes downloaded from remotecentral.


I'm assuming the TV still works with its original remote. So the first guess at why the downloaded codes don't work is that your model uses a different code set.

bisterfinnen wrote:
From what i know, my Nokia remote control uses the NRC17 protocol,


If that's correct, I can figure out how to use MakeHex to generate clean signals. But I'd want more details on why you think it uses NRC17 protocol.

bisterfinnen wrote:

There are some settings that i can do in prontoproedit
-----------------------------------
Duration (0.01-10 secs)

RC 5/6/MM ( Choose one from: RC5, RC5x, RC6 mode 0, RC6 mode 6A)


All of those are specific Philips protocols. Unless the Nokia uses one of those, you need to work with Pronto Hex (as Rob said) rather than use that direct UI for those protocols.

bisterfinnen wrote:

If i get you correctly i should read the signal from my original remote, then i should make som changes to the pronto hex before saving?


We need to see the Pronto Hex you get from the learning attempt. Depending on what it looks like, we probably will have some idea what edit would be worth trying to correct it.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 21

                    
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, my remote works with all other devices in my living room, exept my TV, and i've managed to learn commands via nose to nose, though i would'nt call me an expert. I would rather label myself as an extreme beginner.

Here is a (i think) clean code learnt from the TV's remote(digit 1):

0100 000D 0000 000E 0003 005F 0003 001C 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 001C 0003 001C 0003 001C 0003 001C 0003 003E 0003 001C 0003 005F 0003 93B1

The funny thing is that the next time i check the code prontoedit has changed the code to this:

0100 000D 0000 000E 0003 005A 0003 0027 0003 0038 0003 0038 0003 0038 0003 0038 0003 0027 0003 0027 0003 0027 0003 0027 0003 0038 0003 0027 0003 005A 0003 8276

Does this makes any sense to you?

Regards Stefan
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In JP1 we call that protocol just "pid-2A" because it is rare enough we haven't bothered to give it a real name and UEI uses protocol ID 002A for it.

It is not NRC17 nor similar to it.

All Prontos are bad at learning high speed unmodulated protocols like this. The newer Prontos are pretty bad at transmitting such signals even if you paste in corrected Pronto Hex.

After I check some examples that I have on a different computer, I might have some guesses how to use MakeHex to generated precompensated signals to try to adjust for the errors by ProntoEdit and the Pronto firmware.

Rob, please continue participating in this thread. I'm far from sure I have the right answers here (on how to fix it. I am sure it's not NRC17 and it is high speed unmodulated). If you want to use IrTool.exe, no one ever patched that to accept Pronto Hex beginning 0100. So to use IrTool to pass the data to DecodeIr you need to change the 0100 to 0000. That changes it from unmodulated to very high frequency modulated, but DecodeIr usually (including this case) ignores the frequency. So you get the same decode you would have gotten if IrTool handled unmodulated correctly.

I believe the fixed data should be encoded LSB-comp. Your devices.xls file seems to encode that fixed data MSB comp. If I decoded this right it is device 30, which would be any fixed data value 80 to 87. Most of the setup codes for pid-002A in Devices.xls use fixed data 80, so it could be any of those or any other combination of commands with that same protocol and device.

Stefan, most of those UEI setup codes I mentioned are in most models of Pronto as the built-in database. Your Pronto might be able to use the built-in database instead of learned signals to control this device.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 21

                    
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your interest in my problems.

I've checked the universal database for devices and it does'nt contain any Nokia devices.

While waiting i tried to re-learn some signals from the original remote, using various tips from the remotecentral site. When trying i suddenly got a response in form of flashing "respond" light on the TV for some buttons. Nothing else happened though. When trying again i got a continous flashing light when pressing digit 4 on my pronto. This is the pronto-hex for that signal:

0100 000D 0000 000E 0003 005F 0003 001C 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 003E 0003 001C 0003 001C 0003 003E 0003 001C 0003 005F 0003 93B1

Is these news positive in any way?

Can i try anything more to get it to work?
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look ato see how many setup codes use the $002A protocol with a fixed byte value of "80" and I got quite a few hits, mostly in the European remotes.

Using the URC-3440 as an example, there are 9 TV codes that match this profile:

0163, 0320, 0349, 0356, 0359, 0361, 0363, 0544, 0548

I started to try and put a brand name cross-reference together but I got just too many hits for it to be worth it. So, instead I looked to see what codes were listed for Nokia, I then eliminated the codes that weren't in the above list and reduced the list to this:

0361, 0163, 0349, 0548, 0359, 0320

John, you know more about the Pronto's UDB than I do, could you format some Pronto hex in the UDB format that uses TV/0361 for Stefan to try? In case it helps, I've created a KM file for TV/0361 here...

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=2412
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall details and don't have the data handy at the moment (probably not until tomorrow) but I can see the basics from the last thread we had on that subject.

In that thread, the Pronto Hex was

8000 0000 0002 0000 000d 0038 0002 0000

In a udb signal, the first 4 words and the last word are structural rather than informational, so they should be the same in all samples of udb pronto hex.

All the information is in the 000d 0038 0002

The 000d is the device type. I don't recall which number is which type. But that thread was about a TV and this thread is about a TV, so it should be 000d here.

The 0038 is the setup code number in hex (0056 decimal from that thread is 0038). 0361 decimal is 0169 hex. So if you're right about 0361 being the best setup code to try then it should be 0169 in the pronto hex.

The 0002 is the key number (not the OBC, but a protocol independent numbering of keys). We know from the other thread that 0002 is a discrete power function and thus less likely to be right than a typical key. A digit would be much better but I don't know the internal numbers for digits.

To test the 8000 format of Pronto Hex, Stefan would need to try a bunch of guesses at key number. And even then it's all based on the guess that 0361 is even in the udb for his model Pronto.

Each guess is

8000 0000 0002 0000 000d 0169 00xy 0000

with some number in place of xy.

I've never downloaded ProntoproEdit, just ProntoEdit and ProntEditNG. In ProntoEdit and ProntEditNG to use the udb you need to select the manufacturer first, then you get a disguised list of setup code numbers. In ProntEditNG the disguise is a simple addition of some number (I sort of remember it was 27, but I'm not sure. Jon mentioned the value in a few old threads at RC).

If it works that way in ProntoproEdit, it may be more effective to get to the udb that way than by pasting 8000 codes. But that approach needs part of the brand cross reference Rob decided was too hard. You need to start at a desired setup code such as 0361, then find the brand that is more associated with that setup code than Nokia is, then go into the udb under that brand and find out if the disguised setup code is there.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the site http://www.my.tv/ueicodes.html#tv i found these ofa codes for Nokia TV:s

0361, 0163, 0480, 0208, 0339, 0179, 0374, 0606, 0610, 0631

If i compare this list to what you've listed, only 0163 and 0361 remains.

I found a thread on disguised ofa codes at rc: http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-prontong/thread.cgi?3528,1#1 and there i could confirm the addition of 27 to the ofa codes for the corresponding code set in prontoproedit ng's universal database.

I searched for both code sets 0190 and 0388 among all the TV brands, unfortunately with no luck. Should i search for these code sets among the other devices too?
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bisterfinnen wrote:
there i could confirm the addition of 27 to the ofa codes for the corresponding code set in prontoproedit ng's universal database.


The +27 is not in the database, it is in the ProntoEdit program and I don't believe it is the same in all ProntoEdit programs. Probably it is just in the ProntoEditNG. I expected it to be different in ProntoProEdit.

bisterfinnen wrote:
Should i search for these code sets among the other devices too?


No. If it's not there as a TV code it's not there.

But in case you missed it or the +27 is wrong, you ought to try pasting in some of the pronto hex values beginning 8000.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:


The +27 is not in the database, it is in the ProntoEdit program and I don't believe it is the same in all ProntoEdit programs. Probably it is just in the ProntoEditNG. I expected it to be different in ProntoProEdit.


To check for similarity to what Jon said in that thread i checked the Sony Code Set's and found a code set named 0027. Maybe it was jumping the conclusions to think that this fact confirmed the +27 theory for prontoproedit ng too?


Quote:
But in case you missed it or the +27 is wrong, you ought to try pasting in some of the pronto hex values beginning 8000.


The Hex codes in the universal database are hidden, so i can't see or edit them, just choose among available choices in the "functions" column for each codeset.

Frustrating with all these dead ends.

While waiting for more ideas on how to solve my problem i'll google around for any pronto hex codes starting with 8000.
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bisterfinnen



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:
Each guess is

8000 0000 0002 0000 000d 0169 00xy 0000

with some number in place of xy.


I've tried with numeruos variations but the program just won't accept the code. Invalid ir code it says.

Warm Regards

Stefan
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another approach:

Your TV's IR signals match the "kitchen" TV in this CCF file: remotecentral ... dale-morrison_ccf.zip

I've read about some cases in which a new Pronto can import signals correctly from a CCF file even when it couldn't learn those same signals itself. It's worth trying.
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bisterfinnen



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:
Another approach:

Your TV's IR signals match the "kitchen" TV in this CCF file: remotecentral ... dale-morrison_ccf.zip

I've read about some cases in which a new Pronto can import signals correctly from a CCF file even when it couldn't learn those same signals itself. It's worth trying.


Done that already. No luck.

I was wondering, when i rename the .pcf file to .zip an unzip it i get a library with bitmaps and a .xml file. In that .xml file there is, codes in another format than pronto hex. These codes look like this: - <ACTION id="1542">
- <IRCODE>
- <BASICIRCODE>
- <Duration>
<WhilePressed />
</Duration>
<Code>76 0 f 6c 6 5e 1 13 14 27 26 61 62 3f 7f 50 20 3 0 10 10 10 10 0 10 10 10 10 0 10 10 0 bf 24 40 20 10 23 10 10 10 0 10 10 3 0 10 10 20 0 bf a4 40 20 10 23 0 10 10 10 10 0 3 10 0 0 20 0 bf a4 40 20 3 f0 a f0 d</Code>
<Name id="2350" />
</BASICIRCODE>
</IRCODE>
</ACTION>

Maybe you can help me construct codes in this format. Then i could paste these codes into the .xml file and then zip it and change name to .pcf again. Is this a good idea or am i way out of bounds?
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