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Sony cmt-cpx1 (compact audio)
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the Sony site calls "command codes" are known as OBCs over here. OBC stands for "original button code".

Here's a quick low-down on OBCs vs. EFCs vs. HEX

When the original programmers back at Sony or wherever are putting together the programming for their remote controls, they work with OBCs. These are "logical" numbers, for example, if you sort all the commands that you have learned from most remotes by the OBC, you'll find that alot of the functions are grouped logically. The numeric buttons might all be in order, for example.

In the JP1 world, protocols are re-created using executors. Executors are little pieces of assembly code that feed all the relevant info into the IR engine, which is built into the remote's firmware. The input data for the executors is hex code. This hex code represents the device codes and command codes. EFCs are an excrypted version of the hex code.

Now, if you know anything about hex and binary, you'll know that decimal +1 is "01" in hex and "00000001" in binary, but that isn't always how it works in the JP1 world. That would be true only if the executor is MSB (ie, Most Significant Bit first, and not complimented). If the exec was LSB decimal 1 would be "10000000" in binary (ie, read it backwards) and if the exec was the more common LSB-COMP, the binary would be "01111111".

While most signals have 8-bit variable portions, the Sony signals have 7-bit variable portions instead. This means that there's a spare bit that can be put to good use.

When UEI wrote the exec for Sony, they decided to make it a mini-combo that combines 2 device codes and that spare bit is used to select which one to use (ie, if it's clear, use dev1, otherwise use dev2).

Given that the format of the Sony exec is LSB, that means that the two possibilities for an OBC value of 1 are "10000000" and "10000001" depending on which device code that OBC applies to.

Given that there are 2 possible binary values, there are also 2 possible HEX and EFC values.

When the decoding software translates your learned signal, it has no way of knowing whether you intend to program the device code as dev1 or dev2, so it has no way of knowing which EFC/HEX codes to give you, therefore it gives you both, but it does absolutely know what the OBC value is.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bevhoward wrote:
please clarify or point me to clarification of the OBC vs EFC vs HEX


With a Sony device you get a complex enough mixture of the concepts of JP1 that to understand it, you need to be precise about some details that you could gloss over in most protocols.

Protocol: Sony uses four different ones: Sony12, Sony15, Sony20 and Control-A1 (that last is a whole extra pile of complexity that I'll ignore for now).

Executor: That is a chunk of JP1 assembler code that tells the "IR engine" (part of the remote's firmware) how to generate an IR signal. Often there is one executor for a protocol and one protocol for an executor (so we act like an "executor" is a "protocol"). But for Sony there is more than one executor, most of which can generate more than one of the Sony protocols. You pick the executor that can generate the mix of signals you want.

Device number, (sometimes with subdevice) and OBC. These are encoded in the IR signals. Typically (not Sony) all the signals for a given device have the same device number. With Sony, not only the device number varies from one command to another, even the protocol may vary (within the four Sony Protocols).

Fixed data and Hex command: Together these tell the executor what signal to generate. Typically the fixed data gives the Device number and the Hex command gives just the OBC. But Sony executors are either combo or mini combo executors, where fixed data and hex command are more intertwined. In the simplest Sony mini combo, the fixed data gives two choices for the device info and one bit of the hex command is used by the executor to select between those two.

EFC is just a stupid encription of the hex command. If you are using one of these remotes without JP1 you have no direct control of Hex command nor OBC, so you're forced to work with EFC numbers. If you're using JP1, the EFC numbers usually should be ignored.
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bevhoward



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back for more Jp1... hope to revisit creating the the Sony upgrade and rob's request tonight and tomorrow.
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bevhoward



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'm toast and have made only a fraction of the progress a normal person should have.

I can't get the fwd,frew,fwd,rev "transports" working... they have worked once during trials, but they don't now and havn't a clue why not.

The zip http://bevhoward.com/stuff/CPX1Diag.zip
contains two updates, one with eight "Sony20" keys and one trimmed to four "Sony20" keys (the ffwd,frew,fwd,rev keys) per the Sony20 limit comment in KM

Note... at some point in the process, I noticed that all numberpad keys became populated with 0000 even though only two are used.

Also in the file is an edited and formatted clip of the learned codes as well as the .ir file with them

The final ir file containing the update is included for good measure.

As far as the "sony codes evaluation request" I am a long way from that ;-/

The "1.2" update file in the zip is partially functional... everything except the ffwd,frew,fwd,rev and the eq+-sel keys seem to work.

Please delete (or tell me how to delete) the incomplete zip I uploaded to the diagnostic section.

sorry, but, again... HELP!
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bevhoward wrote:
The zip http://bevhoward.com/stuff/CPX1Diag.zip
contains two updates, one with eight "Sony20" keys and one trimmed to four "Sony20" keys (the ffwd,frew,fwd,rev keys) per the Sony20 limit comment in KM

That limit is on the number of Sony20 device codes that can be used in the setup, not the number of Sony20 functions that can be defined.

On the Functions sheet, the byte2 column for the Sony20 codes should contain "3" to correspond to what's entered on the Setup sheet, not the actual device code ("26") that you have. From the Protocol Help sheet:

Quote:
For Sony20 functions, you need to enter the 8-bit subdevice code (0-255) in the four device code cells in the Setup sheet. Then in the byte2 column you need to enter a 1-digit number indicating which of those 4 sub-devices you wish to use (1, 2, 3, or 4), followed by a space, followed by the 5-bit main device code (0-31).

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bevhoward



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks... will try it...

Quote:
for the Sony20 codes should contain "3" to correspond to what's entered on the Setup sheet

Does that mean for the ones that are _not_ "Sony20" are entered with the two digit code from the learn or the single digit from the setup page?
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, let's try and sort this out. First, let's see what the "Protocol Help" tab in KM has to say about this protocol...

KM wrote:
Sony Combo (12/15/20):

This combo protocol allows you to combine as many Sony12 and Sony15 codes as you like with up to 4 Sony20 codes. You enter the codes for the functions in OBC format as usual. Then in the byte2 column you enter the Sony12 or Sony15 device code. For Sony20 functions, you need to enter the 8-bit subdevice code (0-255) in the four device code cells in the Setup sheet. Then in the byte2 column you need to enter a 1-digit number indicating which of those 4 sub-devices you wish to use (1, 2, 3, or 4), followed by a space, followed by the 5-bit main device code (0-31).

For Sony12/15 codes, the spreadsheet will treat device codes 0 thru 31 as Sony12, and codes 32 thru 255 as Sony15. However, if you wish to explicitly specify which version you want, enter a "5" for Sony12 and a "6" for Sony15, followed by a space, and then the device code.


Now, let's look at your learned signals to see what mix we have: I see functions from the following protocols/device codes:

Sony12 14
Sony12 16
Sony12 17
Sony15 144
Sony20 26.57

So we're mixing 4 Sony12/15 device codes with just one Sony20 device code. This protocol lets us combine up to 4 different Sony20 DEVICE codes, but we're only using one of them, so there's no problem there.

Looking at your KM upgrade file, I see that you entered all the Sony12/15 codes correctly. Now let's focus on the Sony20 signals. The "Protocol Help" tab said... "For Sony20 functions, you need to enter the 8-bit subdevice code (0-255) in the four device code cells in the Setup sheet."

Looking at the Setup sheet on your upgrade file I see that you've entered the following 4 Sony20 sub-device codes: 16, 17, 26, 144 However, looking at your learned signals, I see just one Sony20 signal, and that one has a sub-device code of 57, which isn't in your list. So the first thing you need to do is clear out all those other codes and enter 57 in the "Sony20 subdev1" box.

The "Protocol Help" tab goes on to say... "Then in the byte2 column you need to enter a 1-digit number indicating which of those 4 sub-devices you wish to use (1, 2, 3, or 4), followed by a space, followed by the 5-bit main device code (0-31)."

So, for your Sony20 functions, in the byte2 column you need to enter a "1" (because we entered the 57 in the subdev1 box) followed by a space and the Sony20 main device code (which in your case is 26, so for all of your Sony20 functions, the byte2 column should be "1 26". However, looking at your entries, I see you just entered "26" rather than "1 26" which means you'll get a Sony12 signal with a device code of 26 instead of a SOny20 signals with a device code of 26.57

Hopefully, this rather long winded reply will give you some idea of where you went wrong and will help you continue.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bevhoward wrote:
Does that mean for the ones that are _not_ "Sony20" are entered with the two digit code from the learn or the single digit from the setup page?


KM wrote:
Then in the byte2 column you enter the Sony12 or Sony15 device code.

Bev, all the answers to your questions are right in front of you, I just think you need to pay a little more attention to the instructions that are available, or you'll end up in the kind of mess you did end up in.
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bevhoward



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bev, all the answers to your questions are right in front of you, I just think you need to pay a little more attention to the instructions that are available, or you'll end up in the kind of mess you did end up in.


They may be right in front of me and you may be able to see them when they are right in front of you, but I'm unable to.

I give
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of "zoned out" when the talk turned to KM (I use RM) but there are two things I'd like to point out. Sony uses at least 3 different search commands and they do different things (or nothing at all) depending on what mode the unit is in (DVD, Radio, etc). Make sure you selected the right one. Some double as slow motion modes too.

Second, most of the transport keys I found on these use Sony20, device 16, subdevice 16, which I did not see mentioned in the analysis of your file. In RM you have to select all the parameters because it will default to the wrong ones. (don't know about KM)
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bevhoward wrote:
They may be right in front of me and you may be able to see them when they are right in front of you, but I'm unable to.

Then help us to help you. The instructions appear pretty clear and straight forward to me, but I am an expert, so if they're not so clear to you, please tell us where you think they could be clarified and we'll try to change them accordingly.
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bevhoward



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then help us to help you. The instructions appear pretty clear and straight forward to me, but I am an expert, so if they're not so clear to you, please tell us where you think they could be clarified and we'll try to change them accordingly.


Please know that I am extremely and totally discouraged at the moment.

I will... and I have been trying to keep beginner notes for this exact purpose as I proceed, but from verbiage included in a number of other posts, had assumed such information would not be welcome. Related to this, I did post a process and suggestions on something which was helpful for me to go through three days ago along with a request for feedback but have had zero responses, positive or negative, so assumed that it was either not helpful or totally off base.

My last request for help in this thread was after over a full day of working on generating this update which specifically included methodically reading the "Protocol Help" tab a number of different times over about six hours, so, the assumption that I had not accessed and read all of the information (all the information which I was able to find) took what wind I had left out of me, so it will probably be a few days before I can start back up. fwiw, it took a lot of effort for me to simply revisit this forum today.

There is, obviously, a lot of technical information in the material that you have put a huge amount of work into producing and providing, but, to date, for the most part that information has only made sense and been understandable _after_ I had been through the entire process multiple times using a trial and error approach. It is safe to say I have read _every word_ in your tutorials and within KM at least three times and most material at least five times.

At any rate, my problems which "...end up in the kind of mess you did end up in." are not for lack of trying... the "mess" is not the state of the update, which can always be easily fixed, but rather the lack of ever understanding of the issues, which now seems to me to be a possibility.
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bevhoward



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fwiw, I have just finished reading your 6:46 post which had not appeared whein I made my 6:50 post.

That post is very helpful, although I have yet to understand the approach, but will endeavor to attempt to impliment it's contents as soon as I am able.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit: Aren't posting delays fun! I see you were posting that you had now read the post I wanted you to "reread" while I was posting (everything below) that you should reread it.

Reread Rob's long post a few back in this thread
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=32371#32371

It quotes the relevent section of the help text for what you put in the byte2 column.

The first time I ran into one of these strange byte2 fields, I only skimmed the help text and was totally confused, not by what it said, but by what I already knew that wasn't correct.

Notice that you are feeding it two different pieces of information in byte2.

For Sony20 you give it a selector (1 through 4) for subdevice, then a space, then the literal value of device.

For Sony12/Sony15 there is no subdevice, so you don't give the selector or the space (but its absence is information to KM) and you still provide the literal device number.

The indirect part is the Sony20 subdevice number. That goes in one of four positions on the setup sheet, then is selected by the 1 through 4 values that is the first part of byte2.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bev,
I hear your frustration, and it appears that you're turning some of it into resentment towards us...

bevhoward wrote:
fwiw, it took a lot of effort for me to simply revisit this forum today

I'm at a loss as to how we can be anymore helpful than we have been. We've answered every technical question that you've asked, we've analysed your data and we've posted many suggestions to help you proceed. I think part of the problem is that you're trying to "understand" the process too much rather than just doing it.

Regarding the Sony mini-system, if you go back to my "11 Jul 2005 06:29 pm" post in this thread, you'll see that I not only broke down what the Sony device codes where that you had learned, but I also linked to a page that has the complete list of all available functions and an upgrade that would show you what such an upgrade would look like.

It's impossible for us to know where you're getting lost here. As I hopefully demonstrated in my 6:46pm post, the instructions where pretty clear and concise, the trick is to get the user to follow them. However, this is certainly one of the more complicated protocols. UEI did a good job of making a protocol that lets you combine as much as this one does, and I think we did as good of a job as we could to make it as easy as possible to format an upgrade using this protocol, but when the protocol itself is complicated, there's only so much we can do to simplify the process.
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