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Balance DR-4111 DVD Recorder
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Balance DR-4111 DVD Recorder Reply with quote

Hi! There are a fair number of Balance DR4111 DVD Recorders for sale very cheaply on EBay and I got one. I'm trying to get things working on my URC-8810 and starting to pull my hair out!!!



Device: Balance DR-4111
Type of device: DVD Recorder (and player)
JP1 Remote model: URC-8810B00
JP1 user? Yes!!!
Still have original remote? Yes

Checked the file section? Yes. All over the place. Everywhere I could think of! Balance seems to be a new brand that nobody knows about!

Checked the Pronto file section Yes!

Partially working setup code? No Setup codes available

Learning remote question? Yes. I'm able to learn most keys, but there are important functions that can't be learned regardles of which keys I try to put them on. Setup, Play, Pause, FF, REW for example.


I'm hoping that somebody has already figured out how to build a defination file to describe the behaviour of the Balance DR-4111 and I just can't find it. Or maybe it is really another manufactor's product with a different name on it???

One thing I'm not clear on, for the keys that I can learn, it is possible to define a file to describe the device so I don't use up all my 'Learned Key' memory, right? Or does it not really matter how the keys get defined?
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Balance DR-4111 DVD Recorder Reply with quote

DizzyDays wrote:

Learning remote question? Yes. I'm able to learn most keys, but there are important functions that can't be learned regardles of which keys I try to put them on. Setup, Play, Pause, FF, REW for example.


"can't be learned" tells us a lot less than you ought to be telling us to get any useful help.

Meanwhile, save the .ir file with all the signals youy learned and post it in the Diagnosis area and we can probably figure out most of the answers you need by looking at it ourselves in IR.EXE.

Once I see a few of your learned signals, I'll be able to tell whether they match any other manufacturer's devices from the many I have downloaded as JP1 upgrades and CCF files etc.

That may also answer the question of why some functions were hard to learn and/or eliminate the need to learn them.

If anything unusual will be needed in the process of building an upgrade from the learned signals, we can tell you that as well as soon as any expert sees the learned signals.



DizzyDays wrote:

One thing I'm not clear on, for the keys that I can learn, it is possible to define a file to describe the device so I don't use up all my 'Learned Key' memory, right? Or does it not really matter how the keys get defined?


It does matter how the keys get defined (learned signals vs. keymoves vs. upgrades). The basic help documents for the JP1 process focus on building an upgrade based on learned signals. I don't have the URL handy, but Rob points it out constantly.


Last edited by johnsfine on Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Capn Trips
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Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 3953

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a learning remote AND you're a JP1 user? Just download from your remote and read the learned signal decodes!

Use that info to build an upgrade in KM or RM and copy the right protocol (if be\necessary) and device upgrades to IR and you're in business.

If the remote is not "learning" certain signals, ensure you have fresh batteries in both remotes AND ensure you are learning carefully - i.e. set the remotes down on a table pointing at each other at a few inches apart, no shaking/movement while learning, etc. If you still can't learn or decode the learns, post you learned IR file here, post a link to the file and an expert will help.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Balance DR-4111 DVD Recorder Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:

"can't be learned" tells us a lot less than you ought to be telling us to get any useful help.


I have been reading and trying many different things. I'm sorry, but I don't know enough about 'Learning Keys' to be more descriptive. I appreciate the knowledge and help here, but I don't know how to be more descriptive right now.


johnsfine wrote:

Meanwhile, save the .ir file with all the signals youy learned and post it in the Diagnosis area and we can probably figure out most of the answers you need by looking at it ourselves in IR.EXE.

Once I see a few of your learned signals, I'll be able to tell whether they match any other manufacturer's devices from the many I have downloaded as JP1 upgrades and CCF files etc.


Right now, I've got the keys in the CD device. (I'm still using my old DVD Player until I get the new one figured out!) I've saved the file with a lot of the keys that do learn at:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1911

This includes the number keys, the arrow keys and the select key.

IR.EXE says:
Code:

LEARNED SIGNALS:

#   Device Button   Key   Protocol   Device   SubDevice   OBC   Hex Cmd   EFC   Misc   Note
13   CD   Down   NEC1   4      93   45   232      
14   CD   Select   NEC1   4      29   47   248      
15   CD   Up   NEC1   4      84   D5   100      
16   CD   Left   NEC1   4      89   65   233      
17   CD   Right   NEC1   4      92   C5   228      
18   CD   TV/VID   NEC1   4      78   8D   038        (Input Select)   
19   CD   1   NEC1   4      17   77   121      
20   CD   2   NEC1   4      14   8F   054      
21   CD   3   NEC1   4      15   0F   058      
22   CD   4   NEC1   4      21   57   120      
23   CD   5   NEC1   4      18   B7   119      
24   CD   6   NEC1   4      19   37   123      
25   CD   7   NEC1   4      25   67   249      
26   CD   8   NEC1   4      22   97   118      
27   CD   9   NEC1   4      23   17   122      
28   CD   0   NEC1   4      26   A7   247



Sorry about the formating... I don't seem to know enough to get that to come out right either! Smile
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 4766
Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this matches several existing DVD upgrades.

Some (maybe all) of those are Apex.

If I remember correctly, some of the Apex DVD upgrades have some strange compound commands. I don't remember the details. You might want to do a forum search here or in the old Yahoo forum to find discussions of Apex DVDs.

The one I looked at so far that matched was the AD-1130W.

I could only check the buttons you learned, so other buttons might not match.

I suggest:

1) Delete those learned signals.
2) Install and test one of the upgrades.
3) Test and see whether any buttons are missing or wrong.
4) Learn the missing or wrong buttons from the original remote and edit the upgrade.

Edit: I just noticed that most of the Apex files I downloaded long ago are not present in the new File area, some are even missing from the old Yahoo file area as well.

If you are using RemoteMaster rather than KM, you can use this upgrade
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1585
which matches the codes you posted.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave those Apex files a try... No go... The number keys and the arrow keys work, but that is about it.

The manuel says that they can capture the keys and load my remote if I send it to them. Maybe that will be the way to go? If that did work, I could extract the codes and make a file for other people to use???
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDays wrote:
I gave those Apex files a try... No go... The number keys and the arrow keys work, but that is about it.

The manuel says that they can capture the keys and load my remote if I send it to them.


You've got all the tools to do that yourself, pretty easily and a lot faster than sending it somewhere. And you'll get better results than OFA would give you.

I'm pretty sure the reason some keys didn't learn was that your learning memory was full.

You can delete the digits, arrow and select keys that you showed us, since you know what they are and they match some of the Apex upgrades. Then you'll have room to learn about 15 more keys. If that isn't all, you can save the .ir file with those, delete them and learn a third batch.

You can edit that Apex upgrade in RM easily to change the OBC number of any function that isn't yet right. You easily get the correct OBC numbers from the next batch(es) of learned signals. If you're still confused and/or something is strange in the next batch, upload the next batch(es) of learned signals for the experts to look at.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:

You've got all the tools to do that yourself, pretty easily and a lot faster than sending it somewhere. And you'll get better results than OFA would give you.

I'm pretty sure the reason some keys didn't learn was that your learning memory was full.

You can delete the digits, arrow and select keys that you showed us, since you know what they are and they match some of the Apex upgrades. Then you'll have room to learn about 15 more keys. If that isn't all, you can save the .ir file with those, delete them and learn a third batch.



I'll give that a try. IR said I had a little bit of room left, but I'll double check that! I'll blow away everything in the remote so I have lots of space and give it another try. THANKS FOR HOLDING MY HAND THROUGH THIS!

My DVD-Recorder is recording a show right now... I guess I'll have to wait a couple hours to play with it.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:
You can edit that Apex upgrade in RM easily to change the OBC number of any function that isn't yet right. You easily get the correct OBC numbers from the next batch(es) of learned signals. If you're still confused and/or something is strange in the next batch, upload the next batch(es) of learned signals for the experts to look at.


I'm making good progress. I ended up making a new device. I had some problems getting the constant data right, but almost all of the keys seem to be doing the right thing now.

I'm guessing I should upload this new device when it is all done? Does it need to be checked out by anybody, or does it just get put up for anybody else that comes along?
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't need to be checked out by anyone. I'll probably examine it after you've uploaded it, because you got me currious about how it compares to the Apex and other NEC1:4 DVDs. I usually make some suggestions about how to make the upgrade more understandable for whoever might want to use it next. If you feel like it, you might then replace the upgrade with an improved copy. But there is no requirement to follow such advice.

My advance advice is to include every function you find on the functions sheet of the upgrade, even if you decide that function doesn't need a button assigned to it. And to give the functions meaningful names on the Functions sheet. The prepopulated names are just suggestions. You shouldn't just pick the prepopulated name closest to each function's meaning. You should use the prepopulated names that are right and type over the ones that aren't.
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The Robman
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 18828
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was decoding a TV OEM remote recently that has some weird button names on it, which leads me to offer another little tidbit of advice.

The remote in question has a button labelled VIEW, which has no obvious meaning to me, so I downloaded the user manual and it turns out that you use the VIEW button to activate the PIP feature.

So, when I created the upgrade for this TV, I called this function PIP in the functions sheet, but I put "View" in the notes column. That way, when you're in the Buttons sheet deciding where to place this function, you'll know it by it's real meaning rather than the goofy name that they used on the button.

Another possibility would be to call the function VIEW and to put PIP in the notes column. Either way it would help out people such as John and myself if we end up downloading your upgrade with a view to comparing it with other upgrades. Otherwise we might end up saying that OBC 123 is PIP for most TVs, but is VIEW for this one set, whereas in fact, it's the same function just labelled differently.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Success.... A lot of problems with not knowing this or that and getting confused.... But I got everything defined nicely for both my old and new DVD player. But I have a couple of questions.

- First, I presume I should upload the Key-Master text files for both devices. Is there any protocol or procedure to follow? Or do I just upload them with a sufficiently descriptive message?

- If I can't find a device close to the device I'm trying to create a Key-Master definition file, how do I find out the 'Constant Data' ? When I display the learned keys, it doesn't tell me that information but of course the learning remote does know this information? Without this information, you can't get the first page of the Key-Master spreadsheet to do what needs to be done???

- Lastly, I used to have a Radio-Shack remote and it had a Shift key. But my URC-8810 does not have a shift key. But when I tell Key-Master that I'm using a URC-8810 it shows Shift-Key combinations as being available. What gives? (If I had a shift key available, I could over load a few buttons that would make the use of the remote more intuitive).


THANKS PEOPLE!
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. yes, just upload them with as much additional info in the description as you have availble to you. If you have a link to a web page that describes what the device is, even better.

2. I'm not sure I follow question 2. When you get a new device, it doesn't matter if anyone else has a device like it, nor does it matter if anyone has already created an upgrade for it, nor does it matter if UEI has already created an official setup code for it. As long as you can learn the signals and IR displays the relevant info for them, you have all that you need. In this case, IR identified the protocol as NEC1 and the device code as 4, that's all you need to get your upgrade started. It doesn't matter what setup code number you chose to use for this upgrade.
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DizzyDays



Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:

2. I'm not sure I follow question 2. When you get a new device, it doesn't matter if anyone else has a device like it, nor does it matter if anyone has already created an upgrade for it, nor does it matter if UEI has already created an official setup code for it. As long as you can learn the signals and IR displays the relevant info for them, you have all that you need. In this case, IR identified the protocol as NEC1 and the device code as 4, that's all you need to get your upgrade started. It doesn't matter what setup code number you chose to use for this upgrade.


On the General setup tab of Key-Master, there is a place to enter the 'Fixed Data'. I was under the impression this was sent with any key pressed on the remote and needed to be correct. Maybe I'm mis-understanding this. But that was at the heart of the question. When displaying the learned keys, you don't get to see the Fixed data for the key. So if you don't have any way to start from scratch and build a new device file because you have no way to recover the Fixed data.

Almost for sure, I'm making a bad assumption some where.
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDays wrote:
On the General setup tab of Key-Master, there is a place to enter the 'Fixed Data'.
Actually, you can't enter anything in the Fixed Data cell... it's calculated by KM for you.


Quote:
I was under the impression this was sent with any key pressed on the remote and needed to be correct.
This is true...

Quote:
When displaying the learned keys, you don't get to see the Fixed data for the key. So if you don't have any way to start from scratch and build a new device file because you have no way to recover the Fixed data.
IR tells you the Protocol, Device, and Sub-Device information which is then entered on the Setup sheet in KM to produce the Fixed Data.
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