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Power sync issue on URC-8820
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greenrl



Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 40

                    
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:58 am    Post subject: Power sync issue on URC-8820 Reply with quote

This IR upgrade seems to get the power state out of sync on CBL device.
Problem
When the activity "Watch CBL" is begun first with a cold start, the CBL device (Dish 508) turns on every time reliably. If instead, the activity is begun after the "Watch TV" activity is invoked, the CBL device does not turn on.

A related problem?:
The All Off macro (Phantom3) does not reliably turn off the CBL device. Sometimes it does, sometimes not. After All Off fails to turn off the CBL device, then invoking a Shift-CBL, power sequence requires two presses of the power button to turn off.

Can you spot any problem(s) that I have overlooked?

The file is here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=9457

Thanks for helping.
Richard
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jimdunn



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 544
Location: NSW, Australia

                    
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A question:

Your IR notes say:
Code:
Toad Tog       Device     Label
Assignments     
0                         CBL/SAT  Dish 508 IRD
1                         TV               Sammy LN37A550
2                          DVD           Sony Blu-Ray
3                          PVR            Magnavox DVDR
4                          AUD            Sony 835
5                          AUX 1         none


Do you really not have discrete On/Off available for any of these devices ?

Tracking and creating your macros for 5 ToadTogs, whilst it can be done - seems, at first glance, very complicated and error prone if you could use some discretes instead, to reduce the complications.

The less ToadTogs you use, the less opportunities for device sync problems, which is pretty much what I was trying to say here, in your previous thread...:
Quote:
The confusion can arise because, if the device has no discrete codes available , ToadTog can be used to create a kind of discrete status/command set as an alternative. Hence people can tend to kind of mix up the concept of ToadTog with the use of discretes - the reality is that if the device has discretes available, then just using them is usually the best option, and usually doesn't require any ToadTogging...

I personally look at ToadTog as a last resort - if I really, really can't do what I need to without storing a state in a ToadTog bit, and branching conditionally based on its content, then I'll use one - but if it can be done (with discretes or in some other way) without ToadTogs then that's the way to go - far less complicated, no chance of devices getting out of synch with where ToadTog thinks they are because someone pressed a button on the device or used an OEM remote.


If you're doing all of this "activity based", then:

[1] List all your activities.
[2] List all your desired device On/Off states for all activities.
[3] Put all the Discrete Ons for devices needed into the "Start activity" macros.
[4] Put all the Discrete Offs for devices NOT needed into the "Start activity" macros also.

[5] Fill in any unavailable discretes/gaps in the above points with ToadTogs only if you have to because discretes aren't available.
The easiest way I have found to achieve [5] is by creating "pairs" of Force On/Force Off ToadTogs, then using those pairs to replace the Discrete On/Discrete Off in points [1]-[4]

roughly... Smile
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greenrl



Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 40

                    
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jim, Good advice as always.
The toadtogs are required to track power states. For the TV to allow a pause if needed to delay commands while powering up. For the PVR because there are no discretes for on or off. For the CBL to allow a pause during start up ( but now no longer used ). The one for DVD can and should be removed, I think. Number 4 is assigned in my notes but not used.

Let me remove the ones for CBL and DVD and let you know how it works...

I will be back....

Richard
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jimdunn



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 544
Location: NSW, Australia

                    
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the most important point in what I typed was to be clear on what you are doing.

If Device1 has discretes, then yippee, we can use them - create a keymove for each Discrete On/Off - and this device is done... we have Device1-On/Device1-Off Very Happy

If we get to Device2 and it really doesn't have discretes, or we really need to incorporate a state dependent pause/spin/twirl/ etc.. then we are reluctantly forced to create a ToadTog pair of ForceOn/ForceOff instead, incorporating these requirements - then when that's done - we just use this newly created ToadTog pair as Device2-On/Device2-Off...

repeat for all devices...

Then put all the Devicex-On/Devicex-Off commands into the "activity start" macros, per steps 1 - 4 above.
_______________________________________________________

Obviously - you can then go on, once all this works, and create any number of more conditional commands, based on these (or other) ToadTog states (multiple binary steps being limited only by your ability to create, understand, and, I would strongly suggest, document them Smile ...) - but until you get this "foundation" set of macros sorted out and understood, in my experience, confusion will reign... Confused

Baby steps work best here... (well, at least, they seem to for me) Smile


Last edited by jimdunn on Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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ElizabethD
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Joined: 09 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

greenrl wrote:
The toadtogs are required to track power states.
Correct. but then you continue:
greenrl wrote:
For the TV to allow a pause if needed to delay commands while powering up.
with the same comment about PVR. That is not correct. You do not need ToadTog when you need longer startup time. You only need ToadTog when, as jimdunn says, when your device does not have discrete power codes. And it really is the last of the last resort solutions. A great one, but does lead to confusion at times.

To delay startups, there are several options. Use dummy commands. Add Pause after Discrete ON. Power it on in one macro. Synchronize inputs in another macro. There might then be enough delay between the two key presses that you won't need to force delays.

I hope I did not misunderstand what you said.
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile


Last edited by ElizabethD on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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underquark
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B**ll*cks. I had just searched and found posts mentioning discrete On and Off codes for your Samsung TV and for Sony blu-ray players in general but then Firefox decided to crash on me. Anyway, I found them over at RemoteCentral. They were in Pronto hex format, conversion from which is discussed in this forum.
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsung TV
These two upgrades contain Discrete power commands for TV models that sound close enough to be worth trying
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=6022
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=5513

Sony blue-ray players - one of those upgrades might work, download those that have a close model number to yours
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=132
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

underquark wrote:
B**ll*cks.
Sure hope that wasn't to me - we were likely typing at the same time. Hi uq Smile
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElizabethD wrote:
greenrl wrote:
The toadtogs are required to track power states.
Correct. but then you continue:
greenrl wrote:
For the TV to allow a pause if needed to delay commands while powering up.
with the same comment about PVR. That is not correct. You do not need ToadTog when you need longer startup time. You only need ToadTog when, as jimdunn says, when your device does not have discrete power codes. And it really is the last of the last resort solutions. A great one, but does lead to confusion at times.

To delay startups, there are several options. Use dummy commands. Add Pause after Discrete ON. Power it on in one macro. Synchronize inputs in another macro. There might then be enough delay between the two key presses that you won't need to force delays.

I hope I did not misunderstand what you said.
Liz, the issue (iiuc) is that for the TV, despite having a discrete ON, the OP feels compelled to track state via TT because IF the TV is already on, the Activity macro can simply fire an input select command to the TV, but IF the TV has to in fact power up, then an Activity macro needs to insert a Pause between TV ON and the Input select command. Personally, I have never done it this way - and I have had TV 's with long power-up requirements before they would accept subsequent commands (like 10-15 secs) - but this is how the OP wants to run his setup. My solution was to simply separately power up the TV, and then once it's on, run the Activity macro. For me, any macro that requires you to continuously point the remote in a particular direction for more than 2-3 seconds becomes too unreliable.
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... which begs the question: does the tv really need 15 seconds, or does the OP assume it does because that's the delay before he sees a picture? My sony takes 20 sec to light up, but accepts commands immediately. My toshiba takes 15 sec, but only needs 3 before it takes commands.
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capn Trips wrote:
My solution was to simply separately power up the TV, and then once it's on, run the Activity macro. For me, any macro that requires you to continuously point the remote in a particular direction for more than 2-3 seconds becomes too unreliable.
Capn, That's precisely how I did it. Two button job, no more power in LKP for devices.
Ever since I got Toshiba TV I really had to isolate power 'cause holding the remote still for 3-4 seconds requires a tripod and jp1 remotes have the tripod screw missing inspite of otherwise perfect designs Twisted Evil
I think you're right on what OP wants. I didn't see it before you explained.

mdavej, that's what I see here with my TV as well, perhaps 8-10sec to picture, and 2-3sec for hearing commands. Still, too long to hold the remote steady.
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Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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greenrl



Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion all around. I like Capn Trips suggestion to use a two button activity start up as it will simplify things considerably.

I do have the discretes for all the devices except the Maggy 2160A.

Yep, the Samsung TV "lights up" fairly soon but refuses to accept commands until maybe 15 secs or so. It will even tune the digital station before accepting an input. This is opposite to some of your experiences.

So far I am beginning to think it is not a sync problem but a signal hold time problem unique to the Dish 508. But it seems to be random. For example, sometimes the All Power Off macro (Phantom3) works for the Dish 508 and sometimes it does not.

But in the meantime I am removing the TTs from the CBL device to see what happens. In retrospect, CBL does not really need them.

Edit: I just removed them and tried the ALL OFF macro. No joy. Dish 508 stays on. Crying or Very sad

I even added some 0.5 sec pause after the Phantom1 and shift-Phantom1 power discretes to slow things down a bit... no help.
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jimdunn



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdavej wrote:
... which begs the question: does the tv really need 15 seconds, or does the OP assume it does because that's the delay before he sees a picture? My sony takes 20 sec to light up, but accepts commands immediately. My toshiba takes 15 sec, but only needs 3 before it takes commands.


That's a very good point. My Sony Wega takes 20-25 seconds to come "alive" on the screen, but I found by experiment, gradually reducing, that a pause of just 0.375 seconds was enough to place after a discrete on, before the discrete input selections. It really does need that pause, or it misses the input selection powering up from cold, but the duration is short enough that I can just include it all the time, without tracking any states. Guess I was lucky - but it's worth experimenting to see just how short a pause you can get away with.

If it really does take 15 seconds, I'd be in the "separate power step" camp.
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3FG
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capn Trips wrote:
My solution was to simply separately power up the TV, and then once it's on, run the Activity macro.

At our house, the remotes are setup so that selecting an activity causes an immediate IR signal to switch inputs. Most of the time, that works without further operator intervention because our components all remember the last input used. If the inputs aren't correct, we just tap the activity button again.

This also needs two button presses, but at least its the same button both times.
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jimdunn



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greenrl wrote:

So far I am beginning to think it is not a sync problem but a signal hold time problem unique to the Dish 508. But it seems to be random. For example, sometimes the All Power Off macro (Phantom3) works for the Dish 508 and sometimes it does not.


You could try making sure the actual dish power off signal command is the last command in the macro sequence, then holding the button in for a little bit longer.
The last command in the sequence should repeat while the button is "held in", so if your problem is just that a "longer press" is needed, this could help...

8820 A7 Extender ReadMe wrote:
HOLDING LAST STEP OF A MACRO:

If the last step of a macro transmits a signal, and you held down the original key that started the macro through the entire macro execution, the extender will continue the last signal while that button is held, just as the remote normally does for a signal that is the only action of a button.

This feature acts the same for ToadTogs and DSMs as for ordinary macros.

In rare cases, you want to defeat this feature and avoid having the last step of a macro continued if the user holds the key. You can most easily do that by adding an X_ command to the end.
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