JP1 Remotes

I am wanting to make the remote easier to use for improved WAF. My idea is to make each device button sent codes to set up other devices properly. For example, to play a DVD the DVD needs to be on, the TV needs to be on and the TV needs to be using the svideo input. All these are toggle functions so I can see these easily getting out of sync and not working properly. For example the TV may already be on and want to stay on. For power functions I could detect LED power indicator or line current but that will get fairly complicated although doable - I will be running some IR through a PC that could do translation. I have even seen code to determine if video is valid or just noise. But I am looking for a simpler solution - best case would be something done in the remote. I think the hardest one will be input selection on tv. Any ideas?

BTW, audio amp is much easier as it has different on and off commands and all input selections are different codes.

TV: Sanyo DS31590
DVD: GE1101PB
AMP: Sherwood RX4109
CD changer: Aiwa XC-37M
Sat TV: Hughes SD-HBH

The DVD is currently hooked to the direct video inputs of the TV.
The Sat rcvr goes to a modulator on channel 56 to the TV (and another TV in another room with an IR repeater).

Are you certain your other devices don't already have discrete on/off and discrete inputs available? Just because they aren't on the remote doesn't mean they don't exist. What are the models of your devices? Otherwise you simply need to use toadtogs to keep track. See the definition of toadtog HERE.

When last we talked, you indicated you had a 15-1994 and a 8820 remote. Both of these remotes have full-featured extenders available. So you can of course use the ToadTog protocol to track the status of the devices.

I can't use the ToadTog protocol to track equipment states, because we have his and hers remotes. I use ToadTog for completely different purposes.

However, back to your situation, I'd recommend using a LKP (Long Key Press) to change the settings, and make it self correcting, so that a second LKP will correct the situation. If you can't figure out an algorithm to do that, then skip the Toad/Tog power on/off solution, because if the W goes to watch the DVD and the TV turns off, and its not an easy correction, it will never meet the WAF requirements. Trust me I know about the WAF factor.

Jim14 wrote:I am wanting to make the remote easier to use for improved WAF. My idea is to make each device button sent codes to set up other devices properly. For example, to play a DVD the DVD needs to be on, the TV needs to be on and the TV needs to be using the svideo input. All these are toggle functions so I can see these easily getting out of sync and not working properly. For example the TV may already be on and want to stay on. For power functions I could detect LED power indicator or line current but that will get fairly complicated although doable - I will be running some IR through a PC that could do translation. I have even seen code to determine if video is valid or just noise. But I am looking for a simpler solution - best case would be something done in the remote. I think the hardest one will be input selection on tv. Any ideas?

BTW, audio amp is much easier as it has different on and off commands and all input selections are different codes.

I don't really see how to do it without some method whereby the remote can sense the state of your equipment. I have built 2 systems that are state sensing and I never even considered to put that into the remote. Using a PC to do the state sensing, is the equivalent of swatting a fly with a cannon and would be remarkably unreliable.

I used an ADI Ocelot home automation controller. Although that might sound really initimidating, it's actually a pretty simple device that can do IR input/output, though I skipped using IR input and opted instead for X10 as the input. I have an IR543 IR to X10 translator that is used to translate X10 IR to X10 pwrline cmds. Those pwrline cmds are received by the Ocelot which runs a PLC script that determines what "activity" is desired, based on which X10 cmd was recieved. The remote is programmed to send out a different X10 IR key for each different "activity". The Ocelot monitors the on/off state of each device that doesn't support discrete on/off cmds. It does that by various means, depending on the particular device.

For the TV, I have a current sensing transformer that monitors the current drawn by the TV and the secondary of that transformer is fed to an X10 powerflash interface that sends out a unique X10 pwrline cmd when it sees a voltage from the current sensing transformer. For my audio receiver, a simple wall-wart power plugged into the switched outlet on the back of the receiver and then fed to a powerflash interface module, does the job. In the end, the Ocelot always knows which devices are on at any time and so can skip sending pwr toggle cmds to devices that are already on. You can use the pwr sensing scheme to do some really cool stuff like whenever the power state of a given device changes from off to on, assume that the user wants to use that device and so, send out all the cmds to turn everything else on and configure everything for that activity automatically.

I have a master "all off" cmd setup on the remote that just sends a unique X10 IR cmd and when the Ocelot receives it, using the sensed pwr states for the non-discrete supporting devices, it can send or skip sending pwr toggle cmds to those devices. Those supporting discrete on/off, of course are just sent discrete off cmds. The more complicated of the two setups I have, executes up to a 30 step sequence to power on and get everything configured for a given activity. Each step is precisely controlled timing wise to conform to the requirements of each device. For example, my TV refuses to respond to cmds to change inputs for 5 seconds after it's powered up. So, if the Ocelot had to send a TV pwr on, no further cmds are sent to the TV for 5 seconds after that. Other equipment can be sent pwr on cmds and configured during that time. This particular TV lacks discrete input selection, but through some clever cmd sequences, I was able to get the equivalent of discrete input selection, though it's not particularly quick.

Originally, before I went with the Ocelot, I tried to do all of the pwr up macros through the remote itself, but it was very cumbersome to have to hold the remote pointing at the equipment for 15 seconds while the pwr on macro ran it's course. Now, with the Ocelot setup, the remote sends just one X10 IR cmd and the Ocelot does the rest.

Without true state sensing, you will encounter problems with the remote doing state tracking. Things get out of sync and non-tech savvy family members get very frustrated. The Harmony remotes try to smooth over what happens when their state tracking gets out of sync, by walking the user through a really lame help sequence, asking; is the TV on, or off? is the receiver on, or off? Depending on your answer to each question, they send or not, the appropriate cmd. Yeah nice try, but after you've already frustrated and alienated non-tech savvy family members with lesser out of sync remotes, they don't want to play 20 questions to get things working again.

I'm not saying that my Ocelot based state sensing scheme is 100% reliable, but it has the unique property of "self healing". That is, if the Ocelot somehow missed something and got out of sync (happens once or twice a year), a second press of the same button on the remote manages to resync everything.

A.A.

Instead of using sensors, my approach requires the user to know if the equipment is in the correct state or not.

Kinda like trying to kill a fly with a elephant gun....

cauer29 wrote: I don't really see how to do it without some method whereby the remote can sense the state of your equipment. I have built 2 systems that are state sensing and I never even considered to put that into the remote. Using a PC to do the state sensing, is the equivalent of swatting a fly with a cannon and would be remarkably unreliable.

You have given me some good ideas but I question if the PC will be unreliable. I will be running linux for mythtv so will already be there and running. LIRC would, I think, allow similar rules and flexibility to the ocelot.

How do I find the discrete on and off codes for my equipment? I don't have a list of equipment handy but that would help a lot. The Sherwood amp has individual buttons for on and off so that one is easy but the rest are toggle. I think the most difficult may be the input on the TV since I think it remembers through power on and off cycles.

Look here in the file section or remote central for discretes, or post your equipment list and we can help. Just knowing the manufacturer will get us in the ballpark (i.e., sony nearly always has discretes).

The input is no problem either. If it has discretes, then problem solved. If it doesn't, then just always switch to a known state like antenna via CH+ or something like that first, then do your input sequence.

Toadtogs are a very simple, reliable solution to this very common problem. But it sounds like you don't want to be talked out of the circuit/PC solution.

vickyg2003 wrote:Instead of using sensors, my approach requires the user to know if the equipment is in the correct state or not.

That method pretty much precludes the concept of an activity macro. If there are 4 pieces of equipment that all need to be on and at the time you want to begin that activity 2 of them happened to be on and 2 off, how could a blind macro deal with that equipment that lacks discrete pwr cmds?

To keep a really complex system accessible by technophobes, you gotta have one button macros that guarantee that no matter what the starting state, they get to the desired activity with a single button push. State tracking ain't gonna do it. I started this whole thing out, with all manual button pushes and the list of buttons that had to be pushed in a prescribed order to get to a specific activity, quickly got out of hand. Even with a cheat sheet listing the button presses, the technophobes jwould ust throw up their hands and decide that they didn't really want to watch TV or a DVD or whatever.

A.A.

Jim14 wrote:

cauer29 wrote: I don't really see how to do it without some method whereby the remote can sense the state of your equipment. I have built 2 systems that are state sensing and I never even considered to put that into the remote. Using a PC to do the state sensing, is the equivalent of swatting a fly with a cannon and would be remarkably unreliable.

You have given me some good ideas but I question if the PC will be unreliable. I will be running linux for mythtv so will already be there and running. LIRC would, I think, allow similar rules and flexibility to the ocelot.

How do I find the discrete on and off codes for my equipment? I don't have a list of equipment handy but that would help a lot. The Sherwood amp has individual buttons for on and off so that one is easy but the rest are toggle. I think the most difficult may be the input on the TV since I think it remembers through power on and off cycles.

The PC method did not work reliably for me. There was always some reason that the PC was doing something else at the moment when I pressed a button on the remote and that caused maddening delays in response. All in all, it was very difficult to get repeatable timing/response out of the PC and there was the aesthetically displeasing concept of a PC powered on 24 hrs a day just in case someone might press a button on the remote. The Ocelot home automation controller only cost me $100 used and it consumes just 1 or 2 watts sitting there and it never has anything else to do, but sit there waiting for me to press a button. A PC on the other hand is going to be 100+ watts sitting there making noise and heating up the room.

A.A.

How many devices do you have? How many “activities” do you want. I use a extended 10820N for 9 devices and 14 activities (most devices have an activity that uses the TV for sound?volume control and another that uses the AV receiver for sound).

For each device that doesn’t have both discrete on and off you need a toad tog force on, force off and toggle.

I use device short key press to switch to an activity an long key press to turn required devices on and set the inputs.

Single key press power on the active device turns the device off. Double key press power on any device turns everything off.

Device shift power toggles the on/off state of the device without changing the toad tog state to allow fixing out of sync problems. However, when your macros are debugged you don’t have sync problems as long as you keep the remote pointed the devices until the macros are complete.

I will try to make a more complete description of my configuration / IR file and post it and the IR file tomorrow.

jeajea wrote:How many devices do you have? How many “activities” do you want. I use a extended 10820N for 9 devices and 14 activities (most devices have an activity that uses the TV for sound?volume control and another that uses the AV receiver for sound).

For each device that doesn’t have both discrete on and off you need a toad tog force on, force off and toggle.

I use device short key press to switch to an activity an long key press to turn required devices on and set the inputs.

Single key press power on the active device turns the device off. Double key press power on any device turns everything off.

Device shift power toggles the on/off state of the device without changing the toad tog state to allow fixing out of sync problems. However, when your macros are debugged you don’t have sync problems as long as you keep the remote pointed the devices until the macros are complete.

I will try to make a more complete description of my configuration / IR file and post it and the IR file tomorrow.

I think we all understand how toad tog works and it's limitations. That is, devices get out of sync. That's what the OP is trying to avoid, by doing state sensing. How anyone could describe toad tog as "reliable" is beyond my comprehension. It gets out of sync easily and non-tech savvy family members can't deal with it. I have a solution that I outlined to help the OP.

A.A.

keeping a stack of equipment in sync with the remote that is using the ToadTOG protocol of an extender is not as difficult as you think. There are a couple of ways of dealing with this, but they are all based on one simple rule that will make things reasonable. Tell everyone in the house to NEVER TURN THE DEVICE on or off on the device. Then you can either:

1: as Vicky suggested, having a regular or short press use the discrete's and run the macros as you want to turn everything on and make sure everything is set up properly (i.e. the DVD button turns on the audio, TV and sets the inputs for the DVD and turns on the DVD player) Then you use a long press that just toggles the DVD in case it gets into the wrong state.

2: do the manual method that if the remote gets out of sync with the equipment stand up, walk across the room and change the state. Since there are only two states (on,off) it's pretty simple.

I have two TOADs in my rack and I doubt that they get out of sync more than once a month. It's not a huge issue.


How I have mine set up is that I have the devcie buttons with macros on them to set things up (i.e. the example in option 1 above) and the power button turns everything off. I didn't choose to put short/longs on the device buttons since it's easier for me to tell the others in the house that if they push the dvd button and the dvd player goes off, get up and turn it on. Same for the VCR.

But if you switch from DVD to VCR in a single "session" both of them are on until you push the "all off" power macro.

one final note: To use the ToadTOG function you're going to have to get into extenders. ToadTOG allows you to "simulate" a discrete on/off by keeping a state in the remote and only sending the power toggle when the unit is in a certain state (i.e. if you are sending a discrete on you either send the power toggle or nothing depending on what the remote thinks about the unit)

mdavej wrote:Look here in the file section or remote central for discretes, or post your equipment list and we can help. Just knowing the manufacturer will get us in the ballpark (i.e., sony nearly always has discretes).

The input is no problem either. If it has discretes, then problem solved. If it doesn't, then just always switch to a known state like antenna via CH+ or something like that first, then do your input sequence.

Toadtogs are a very simple, reliable solution to this very common problem. But it sounds like you don't want to be talked out of the circuit/PC solution.

Thanks for the tips. Sounded like it would solve the problem but when I switch to direct input the channel up and down buttons do nothing. It is a Sanyo DS31590.

I am not fixed on the PC solution. It's just that without any good ideas on how to do it more simply I thought the PC solution was the best way. My wife is going crazy with the system now and I want something that works well. I would rather put it in the remote if I can and it works well.

BTW, the PC doesn't have to take 100 watts. Linux can be run on a 5W router although I have to admit I don't have that yet.

I found the file here for the tv but I am not sure what to do with it. I am just trying to get started with JP1 stuff. I know the file is to be loaded into a program but I expect a few things could be learned just by looking at the file contents with a text editor.