JP1 Remotes

[embrion]

Hello,

I'm looking for nice universal remote and foun that JP1 might be better than Harmony if I want to have better control on configuration.
I checked the xls listing JP1 remotes and I'd prefer RCA RCRP05B but I can see that URC-8820/108020 have more features. Should I worry about it?
Could someone explain me what does:

[mdavej]

An Extender is good to have, as are lots of Devices. 5 EFC digits are better than 3 (not an issue in the current crop of remotes). Phantom devices increase the device count as well. The other columns aren't important when choosing a remote. However, I have to admit I have no idea what the protocol column means.

All macros max out at 15 steps each on most JP1 remotes (make that 20 on the 10820). But with an extender, macros can call other macros, making the effective length unlimited. Since the macro and keymove memory is shared, it's hard to say what the max is. I can say that in the models you're considering, I've never run out of space. I typically have around 30 macros and probably as many keymoves.

Without an extender, you can generally program 2 macros per key per device to any key except the setup button. With an extender, you can generally program 4 per key (primary or short press, shifted, xshifted, long or double press). That's a theoretical max of 800 spots for macros on an average 5 device, 40 button remote. So you don't have to worry about running out of macro keys. You only have to worry about putting them in intuitive places so you can remember where they are.

In addition to more ways to call macros, extenders give you some additional features like device state tracking (TOAD-Togs), key group mapping, device multiplexing and more memory.

The RCA doesn't have an extender yet, but the 8820/10820 does. In spite of that, I like the looks and the layout of the RCA best, so that's one of my main JP1 remotes at the moment. Even without an extender, the RCA can do device specific macros, pauses, multi-macros, and fast macros, and is 8 device including phantoms. The RCA is also cheaper and easier to find at a local store.

Those are all nice features which aren't on the chart. Aside from the extender and devices columns, I don't think the chart is a good feature comparison tool. It's simply a list with a few important attributes of each model so someone can pick the right cable, etc.

I don't know what features an unextended 8820 has. One thing I don't like about either the RCA or the 8820 is the lack of backlighting. Some Atlas and Insignia remotes are backlit. Atlases are also quite cheap and have an extender. They're a little short on devices though and can't learn (generally).

Bottom line is, it's really complicated picking out a $15 remote

[vickyg2003]

Extender
The 10820N extender is sitting on my desk as we speak. An extender makes the remotes a little more customizeable. We can do nested macros, and have special features. The RCA remote has device specific macros built in, and both of these have a built in LKP (long key press) feature for the device keys.


Devices (Phantoms)
Phantom devices are extra devices that can handle an additional device even though there isn't a button for it. So the RCA is not limited to the 5 device buttons.

EFC Digits
Both of these remotes are capable of using 5 digit EFC's which let you do keymoves on combo protocols.

Device Offset
Device Offset just lets us know that the standard setup codes are shifted by a few numbers. This is really important to know if you are trying to help them via the internet, but means nothing to you as a user.

[embrion]

Thanks for answer
I live in Europe, but my friend often flies to US so he could pickup RCA at BestBuy for me + I agree it looks better and I'd only add backlight to it.
I don't think I'll need more than 15 steps if Logitech Harmony owners live with 5 (15 with hacking) Does PAUSE count as a step?
2 macros per key is also more than enough.
Keymove is overriding factory function of a key?
I read here that someone is/was working on extender for RCA but don't know current status.
About phantom keys, they're only used to keep stuff for macros, right? I shoul only count 5 devices accessible via physical keys as 5 different key setups?
I checked other JP1 remotes in my price range and they look ugly (sorry if I offended anyone ) so I'm left with those three I mentioned.


--Edited--

Oh, so how can I access phantom devices if there's no key for them?
Long press? So different action on key hold? Cool
OH, and what is "Device Style" ? Just layout type?

[3FG]

[embrion]

I see. So macro can not only "press" physical button but also phantom one.
This forum is really great. So many helpful ppl

[vickyg2003]

Keymove is overriding factory function of a key?

A keymove is a powerful tool. It allows us to add funtions that were not in the original setup, or to combine keys from different devices.

I should only count 5 devices accessible via physical keys as 5 different key setups? You can only access the device phantom devices if you have a cable. If you don't have a cable you are limited to the devices that have physical devices.

I checked other JP1 remotes in my price range and they look ugly Yes, I'd have recommended the ATLAS as a better remote than either of the two that you are considering, but they are the ugliest remotes around. However the differnt colored keys on the atlas make it one of the best user remotes. The keys are BIG and well spaced and color coded so that even with my poor eyesight I can find the buttons. And there is no mistaking which end is pointing where.

In the end personal preference is really important.
_________________
Remember to provide feedback to let us know how the problem was solved and share your upgrades.

Tip: When creating an upgrade, always include ALL functions from the oem remote, even if you never plan on assigning them to a button. Complete function lists makes an upgrade more helpful to others.

[embrion]

Where can I read more about features like keymove?

Just to be sure. I need cable to SET access to those phantom devices but I won't have to sit with cable connected to PC while using them after setup, right?

I'll probably stick to RCA but thanks for pointing alternatives.

[mdavej]

To answer your other questions, pause counts as a macro step. You never need the cable to be connected while operating the remote. Device style has to do with how device codes are manually entered (whether the code start with a number or a device button). It doesn't come into play when programming with JP1 software. A keymove is just another term for the ability to assign any function from any device to any key in any device mode. Volume lock is like a keymove. In TV mode, the Vol keys can work your receiver volume instead. So the receiver vol keys were moved to the tv vol keys.

To be fair, harmony activity macros are essentially unlimited. It's one-key macros that are limited to 5 steps (or zero depending on the model). But the 15 step limit has never been a problem for me. Anything approaching that is usually impractical since it's hard to hold a remote still for that long.

There are some pretty cool looking JP1 remotes in the European market. Are you sure none of those strike your fancy?

[embrion]

Oh, and as owner of Harmony. Could You compare capabilities of it versus JP1 ? I was also thinking about basic 515/525 model.

I checked again those european ones and everything is not available or ugly (or looks unpractical like Kameleons). I'm looking for something Media Center style. Maybe I missed something and You could point me these cooler ones

[The Robman]

Here's a few tidbits to add some clarity to what the others have already said.

Phantom Devices and Buttons
These exist when they use the same chip for different remotes, so even though your remote might only have 5 physical device buttons, the programming might have been designed for a remote with 8 (or more) device buttons. Therefore, anything that you could program on the larger remote, you can also program on the smaller remote (with a JP1 cable).

Regular phantom buttons are primarily used for functions that you only need in macros but don't need access to via a regular button (like Discrete On, Off, etc).

If your remote has phantom device buttons, you can easily access them by programming macros to physical buttons. For example, if your remote has dedicated learning buttons, you could convert them into additional device buttons by programming 1-step macros on them where the 1 step is the phantom device button.

A more practical solution might be to program the 1-step macro to a shifted regular device button, which is what 3FG was suggesting.

Keymoves
Keymoves are especially useful for people that don't have JP1 cables because they can be used to override the programming on a button. So, for example, if the MENU button has the wrong code on it, and you find the right code, you can fix it by using a keymove.

People with JP1 cables will probably create a new upgrade for the device that has the right code on the MENU button, but keymoves are still useful for us too. That is because upgrades typically can't include every button on the remote, so we use keymoves to program the buttons that can't be included in our upgrades. We also use them to program functions to shifted button and to program functions across device modes. For example, if you want the PIP buttons to work your TV's PIP function, even when the remote is in DVD mode, keymoves can be used to make that happen.

Using a JP1 cable
Just to make sure this is totally clear, you only use a JP1 cable to program the remote, you don't need to have the remote connected to the cable when you're using it.
_________________
Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!

[mdavej]

HERE are some of my thoughts on JP1vs. Harmony. Search this board for harmony and you'll probably find others.

[embrion]

Thanks again.

Still nobody know what does "protocol" column mean ?

Btw. I read about LKP (long key press) but only in context of device keys multiplication.

Would it be possible to make such thing for non device keys?

For example:

short press "Play" button does one action (Play on VCR)
long press "Play" button does another action (Play on HiFi)

If so, then in practice every button could have TWO alternatives. One with shift and one with long press. If this is the case then I think Harmony looses badly

[vickyg2003]

[embrion]

Great!
I'd be already calling my friend to buy it for me in not lack of backlight...started to look at Kameleons but I don't think I'll like this type of keypad