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Volume punch-through without mute punch-through
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
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Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:24 pm    Post subject: Volume punch-through without mute punch-through Reply with quote

I have three source devices:

(1) TV
(2) HTPC
(3) Streamer DAC that can play internet radio and files on an SSD.

The problem is that the amplifier does not have a MUTE capability. But each of the three source devices has a MUTE capability. So what I would like to do is to enable punch-through from each of the source devices to the amplifier for VOL_UP and VOL_DOWN, but have no punch-through for MUTE.

Punch-through to the amplifier works OK, but the MUTE button does nothing, from which I conclude that MUTE, VOL_UP, and VOL_DOWN are bundled together as far as punch-through is concerned.

Is what I want possible? If so, how do I achieve it? I looked at "External functions", but I cannot work out how to use them. I also looked at "Keymoves" in the Wiki, but did not find anything that seemed relevant.

Thanks for any help.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re-program the MUTE button in each device mode using a keymove and the EFC for that device's MUTE button.
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 74
Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
Re-program the MUTE button in each device mode using a keymove and the EFC for that device's MUTE button.

This done using "External Functions" in the device upgrade? Is that correct?

I eventually created a definition in "External Functions" that looked as though it might work, but then I noticed at the bottom of the "Devices" tab in RMIR these words in bold:

This remote does not support Key Moves, so any external functions in a device upgrade will not work as they are implemented as Key Moves.

The remote that I am trying to use is an XSight Lite (URC-8610). Does this remote preclude the possibility of disabling punch-through for MUTE? Is there any other way of disabling punch-through, or am I out of luck? Thank you.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 8610 supports learned signals, so you could try learning the MUTE button in each device mode.
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to learn signals, as Rob is suggesting. The way to do it is to turn off the Volume punchthrough and to set the Volume Up and Down buttons of the other two devices to send the Volume Up and Down signals for the amplifier. If you select a device on the Devices tab and press Edit, it opens the Device Upgrade Editor. If you go to the Buttons tab on that, the right-hand pane has a drop-down box for Functions for Device. Select your amplifier in that, then drag the Volume Up and Down boxes in that to the Function column entries for Vol+ and Vol- buttons. You will see that the Device column then lists your amplifier as the device used for these buttons.

Try this and report back if it solves your problem. The reason that this remote does not support key moves is that it has this alternative, and in many ways better, way to achieve the same end. BTW I did not know that we had any members who were still actively using the XSight Lite. I am glad to know that there is at least one Very Happy .
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
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Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
The 8610 supports learned signals, so you could try learning the MUTE button in each device mode.

I tried learning the MUTE button for one device as a test. It took four attempts (in a darkened room, no less!), but eventually it succeeded.

I am pleased to report that the learned MUTE works OK, and the volume buttons remain typamatic (press and hold). So volume punch-through preserves the typamatic ability of VOL_UP and VOL_DOWN, while the learned MUTE button does not need typamatic behaviour.

In the past my experience with learned signals has been somewhat variable, so my preference in general is to avoid them, but the learned MUTE is certainly a viable solution. So thank you for that suggestion. Very Happy

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
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Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
The way to do it is to turn off the Volume punchthrough and to set the Volume Up and Down buttons of the other two devices to send the Volume Up and Down signals for the amplifier.

Thank you for contributing this suggestion, as I would not have identified it as a possible solution.

I have tested it for the TV device, and it does work, but the problem is that the typamatic ability of the VOL_UP and VOL_DOWN buttons is lost. Press and hold of a volume button moves the volume control by only a single step. In contrast, if I select the amplifier device, press and hold of a volume button moves the volume control continuously while the button is depressed.

I looked around RMIR and the Upgrade Editor, but I could not find anywhere where it might be possible to specify that a button should repeat if held depressed. Is this possible?

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberSimian wrote:
I have tested it for the TV device, and it does work, but the problem is that the typamatic ability of the VOL_UP and VOL_DOWN buttons is lost. Press and hold of a volume button moves the volume control by only a single step. In contrast, if I select the amplifier device, press and hold of a volume button moves the volume control continuously while the button is depressed.

I had not thought of that. I can think of a few things that might work, which I will try on my XSight Lite and get back to you on this. I am sure we can come up with some way that does not require you to actually learn any signals which, as you say, can have variable results.
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CyberSimian



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
BTW I did not know that we had any members who were still actively using the XSight Lite. I am glad to know that there is at least one Very Happy .

I have various One-for-All remotes. In addition to the XSight Lite, I have the XSight Plus, XSight Color, Essence 4 (URC-7140), the tapered one (URC-7955), and the Smart Control one (URC-7960).

I purchased the XSight Colour because I wanted the support for 15 devices, but in fact I don't use it. The transport controls are great, but the remainder of the buttons are horrible -- they are too small and don't protrude enough above the casing, making them unnecessarily difficult to press.

I purchased the XSight Plus because of its support for 12 devices (I thought that I might need more than the Lite's 6 devices), but in fact I don't use it. I really like the button feel of the Lite, and I had expected the Plus to be the same, but it is noticeably different (for the worse). I think that this is due to different button mechanics (the Plus buttons are illuminated, whereas the Lite buttons are not).

I am currently using the Essence 4, which has really nice buttons for direction, volume, channel, and numbers. The transport buttons are too small and too close together, but the Essence 4 remains my favourite among the non-XSight remotes.

We have had remote controls for 40-50 years now, and one would have expected that the ergonomics of remote control design would be well known in the industry, and no manufacturer would produce a bad remote control, but it seems that that is not the case. Crying or Very sad

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 74
Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
I can think of a few things that might work, which I will try on my XSight Lite and get back to you on this.

Thank you, Graham. Without your willingness to spend your own time looking after and enhancing RMIR, we would all be in a far worse state with respect to our remote controls.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, this works in my testing. It is Rob's method but without actually learning any signals Rolling Eyes . So set volume punchthrough to your amplifier, then do the following for each of your other two devices. Select the device on the Devices tab and press Export. Give a name for the .girr file it will create, which could be just the device name, select a folder to save it in and press Save. Open the file with a text editor, scroll down to (or search for) the entry for the Mute signal and copy the hex data between the <ccf> and </ccf> tags for that signal. Go back to RMIR, select the Learned Signals tab and press New. Paste the copied hex into the Signal Data box, making sure that the Pronto button is selected (which it should be by default). Give the signal any name you like and set the Bound Button to the Mute key for the device concerned. Press OK , or if you like you could first press Apply to see how the signal decodes.

You now have an accurate Mute signal on the Mute key that has been constructed from the IRP of the protocol rather than one that has gone through a learning process, so it should work reliably. This method should work for almost all protocols, so unless your devices use very unusual protocols, all should now be well. The learned signal takes priority over the punchthrough.

You could, of course, do it the other way round. Turn off the punchthrough, create Volume Up and Down learns for the amplifier and put them on those keys for the other two devices. This too will work, as the learned signals do repeat when the key is held.

Do try this and report back.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberSimian wrote:
The Robman wrote:
The 8610 supports learned signals, so you could try learning the MUTE button in each device mode.

I tried learning the MUTE button for one device as a test. It took four attempts (in a darkened room, no less!), but eventually it succeeded.

I am pleased to report that the learned MUTE works OK, and the volume buttons remain typamatic (press and hold). So volume punch-through preserves the typamatic ability of VOL_UP and VOL_DOWN, while the learned MUTE button does not need typamatic behaviour.

In the past my experience with learned signals has been somewhat variable, so my preference in general is to avoid them, but the learned MUTE is certainly a viable solution. So thank you for that suggestion. Very Happy

We can improve the learned signals so they work more reliably, if you like. If so, just post your RMIR file and I'll fix it.
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CyberSimian



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
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Location: Southampton, UK

                    
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
Paste the copied hex into the Signal Data box, making sure that the Pronto button is selected (which it should be by default).

Well, this is very strange. When I right-click a location inside the "Signal Data" area, nothing happens -- no context menu appears. I have correctly copied the data, since it does appear if I paste it into some other file.

Is there some other setting that needs to be set first?

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a simple text box that one can type into, no context menu. Just use Ctrl/V to paste.
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Graham
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CyberSimian



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
We can improve the learned signals so they work more reliably, if you like. If so, just post your RMIR file and I'll fix it.

Thanks for the offer, Rob. Smile

Graham's method seems as though it ought to work in the general case (for other buttons, other devices), so let us see if that can be made to work first.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK
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