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Can't create device upgrade from learned keys
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 am    Post subject: Can't create device upgrade from learned keys Reply with quote

Using my ARRX18G, I learned some keys for my Marantz SR7011 receiver that were missing from the device upgrades I found in the files section.

I'm now trying to use RMIR and Remote Master to create a new device upgrade - basically, trying to move all the learned signals to a single device upgrade. I have spent many hours on this, and I'm not succeeding.

While I was using RMIR v2.10, I was using the "convert to device upgrade" function under "learned signals". I was given the choice to append to the existing device upgrade, or to create a separate one just from the learned signals. The "append" function wasn't working at all - none of the signals got added. With a separate device ugprade, they did get created. But only half of them worked. Some are RC5 and some are RC5X. Basically, only the RC5 signals actually worked - the RC5X were all messed up and not understood by my Marantz receiver.

I just upgraded to RMIR v2.12, and now I'm only being offered the option to convert the learned signals to a separate device upgrade, but the RC5X signals still don't work.

You can download my RMIR image from
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JUTe0W-JSyx9at_FaocpIxY3UQ4Hhi4W/view?usp=sharing

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=26091

That image works, but the keys in the Marantz remote device all point to the learned signals.

I tried to copy the signal data by hand, but I can't even enter it the same way. Is there any hope for me, and if so how ?
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mathdon
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Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was suggested to me that there were too many options given after pressing "Convert to Device Upgrade", so I simplified it for default use. You can get all the options, including appending to an existing upgrade, by going to Options > Suppress Messages and unchecking "Import options" which is checked by default.

If you still can't get it to work as required, with all options available, please post again and I will look further into it.
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They probably won't convert because your learns are a mix of multiple protocols. But you can add them manually.

I'd start with this upgrade and add any missing functions from your learns. For example, if you look at DVD in your learns, it's protocol RC5x, device 16, subdevice 0, OBC 10, which matches the upgrade below. Similarly, CD is RC5, RC5 device 20 and OBC 63.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=25808

The ones you'd need to add are:
Phono
Aux
Bluetooth
Movie FX
Music FX
Internet Radio
USB
Online Music
Game FX

By the way, it's best to upload your files to our file section here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=35
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
It was suggested to me that there were too many options given after pressing "Convert to Device Upgrade", so I simplified it for default use. You can get all the options, including appending to an existing upgrade, by going to Options > Suppress Messages and unchecking "Import options" which is checked by default.

If you still can't get it to work as required, with all options available, please post again and I will look further into it.


I unchecked this option. This is what I did :
0. load the file I attached in my OP
1. selected all 19 learned signals
2. used "Convert to device upgrade", then, I still can't get it to work as required.
3. chose RC-5/5x Combo (0073) when asked for "protocol chooser"
4.clicked "append"
I got a warning that 5 signals were already present in the upgrade, 5 were renamed to present duplicates, and 5 could not be assigned to a key due to duplicates.
5. clicked OK.
6. went to the "Devices" tab
7. clicked Edit at the bottom
8. clicked the "Layout" tab at the top
9. clicked any of the soft buttons. Almost all of these were all learned
10. hit the delete key on the keyboard. Nothing happened
I guess this is an unrelated bug.
But I can't really test the device upgrade unless I reassign the soft buttons from "learned signal" and to one of the local functions.

In terms of UI/UX, I think it would be much simpler if I could just avoid having to go to the "learned signals" tab . What I really want to do after learning some keys on the remote is :
0. start RMIR
1. select and open the device
2. click "save" to save the component as its own device upgrade
I am sure there is a good reason why that's not the software works as written. IMO, anything in the direction of fewer manual, error-prone steps would be helpful.

I have some more things left to try with the software, but it's pretty late and I have to go to sleep.
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdavej wrote:
They probably won't convert because your learns are a mix of multiple protocols. But you can add them manually.


Thanks. I tried manually on monday but had no luck. I will try again tomorrow.

Quote:

I'd start with this upgrade and add any missing functions from your learns. For example, if you look at DVD in your learns, it's protocol RC5x, device 16, subdevice 0, OBC 10, which matches the upgrade below. Similarly, CD is RC5, RC5 device 20 and OBC 63.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=25808


I have seen the AV7705 device upgrade, but it's still missing several functions I wanted, and the inputs have different names, so I figured I would just relearn them all, rather than try to match the input names of what's in the AV7705 device upgrade to the SR7011. I'm using every single HDMI input on my receiver, and some analog too.

Some things don't make sense to me. If I go to the "Learned signals" tabs and look at the last signal, Pure FX, I see it's RC5, device 16, OBC 34, with hex cmd 74, ie a single byte.

If I go to the migrated device upgrade, for the same signal, it is :
RC5, OBC 34, RC5 device 16. Hex: 07 74, ie. 2 bytes.

It's strange to me that the same signal is 1 byte in the "learned signals" tab, but 2 bytes when converted to the device upgrade, in the "functions" tab. Is this a bug ?

When comparing the signal immediately above, "Game FX", which is of type RC5X, it is even stranger. Hex for that one is FE D0 in "learned signals", but it is 02 D1 in the "functions" tab of the device upgrade.

Quote:

The ones you'd need to add are:
Phono
Aux
Bluetooth
Movie FX
Music FX
Internet Radio
USB
Online Music
Game FX


Technically, those are the additional buttons, but I replaced the signals for the soft buttons too. And renamed/reordered some of the existing soft ones too. So, And that didn't come through properly when RMIR read the remote. It might have been a bug in RMIR 2.10. Not sure if 2.12 would read it properly if I relearned it from scratch. I'm not eager to reset the remote to factory again, and relearn all 19 signals. I thought learning all the signals would be the easiest way to go. Learning every single signal manually was what I always did on my old Sony RM-AV2500, and it always worked perfectly. But there was no software involved with that one at all. No PC editing. Only backup from remote to remote. Going back and forth with a PC with the ARRX18G adds a huge can of worms.

Quote:
By the way, it's best to upload your files to our file section here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=35


Thanks. I wasn't aware of this file area. Next time, I'll be sure to post there.
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know exactly how the learn tab displays the data, but I can tell you that learns are generally a mess - too short or too long, starting late or ending too soon. RM's algorithms do their best to filter all that junk out to arrive a the perfect signal you ultimately get from an RMIR upgrade. So I wouldn't put much stock in the hex field on the learns tab. Focus on the decoded protocol, device and subdevice. Combo protocols like RC5/RC5x are going to need more bytes than the original single protocol anyway because there are more parameters to specify.

Once you add your missing functions and assign to buttons, they should work fine as a new device without losing your original learns. You can always keep multiple copies of your config, one with learns and one without and reload in the future without out fear of losing them or resetting and starting from scratch.

You can certainly keep using the 18G like your old Sony. There is no need to ever convert your learns, it just makes the best signals and saves memory. 3 learns usually take the same memory as an entire device upgrade.

The whole point of RM is to make programming the remote easier. Personally I'd rather load a couple of files and drag and drop on a PC than go through the tedium of learning.

In any case, I'm not clear on what's still not working for you. If you want to keep pursuing it, post your updated file so we can see what's going on.
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdavej wrote:

The whole point of RM is to make programming the remote easier. Personally I'd rather load a couple of files and drag and drop on a PC than go through the tedium of learning.


So would I, but if the files are missing a couple of functions you require, there is no choice but to learn at least those missing keys.

Quote:

In any case, I'm not clear on what's still not working for you. If you want to keep pursuing it, post your updated file so we can see what's going on.


There are a lot of things not working, actually. Is there a bug database ? I can think of at least 3 or 4 I would like to file, if so.

In this case, the biggest remaining issue is that I can't create a device upgrade with the functions I learned. The automated conversion doesn't work. I still haven't figured out the manual method, but will read your instructions some more.

Without a device upgrade, if I ever want to start from a factory ARRX18G remote image, I won't be able to create a new device and import all the functions. I would have to relearn the functions. Also, I won't be able to share the device upgrade with the community here.
Finally, if I switch to a different model of remote, same issue, as I couldn't load an ARRX18G RMIR remote image into another model. I would have to start over and relearn all functions.

To clarify, I was able to create device upgrades from learned keys for other devices. For example, my Optoma UHD65 projector. I just learned all the keys from scratch as there is a small number of them. I will share that device upgrade soon. I am unable to do so for the Marantz SR7011 receiver. I think that's because of the multiple protocols involved. I think that's the main problem, and I would consider it a bug in RMIR.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey MB, the "convert to upgrade" function really should be regarded as a luxury item and while it works in most ordinary cases, it becomes a lot harder in cases where a device uses a mix of different protocols and/or device codes. In these cases, it's usually best for the JP1 user to decide which combo protocol to use, and in fact, to decide WHETHER to use a combo protocol or to create individual upgrades. It's hard for the software to make those decisions for you.

In this case, Dave has already linked to an upgrade that should do 90% of what you need:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=25808

I have taken a look at the buttons that you learned and I see that 9 of them are included in the upgrade, which leaves 10 that are not included. Of those 10, 6 can be added, and I have added them. Unfortunately, that leaves 4 that I could not add. The problem is that the RC-5/5x Combo executor only allows for up to 4 RC-5x device codes and those last 4 learned buttons (Blu-Ray, USB, Internet Radio, Online Music) use device codes that aren't in that upgrade.

If I delete BD(Code1) and BD(Code2) from the upgrade, I could add Internet Radio, Online Music.

If your goal is to avoid using learned signals, you will need to create a second "helper" upgrade which contains the 4 missing buttons. I forget how you do the equivalent of keymoves in the ARRX18G, but Dave can help with that.
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robman,

The Robman wrote:

In this case, Dave has already linked to an upgrade that should do 90% of what you need:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=25808


Yes, and I have said, I looked at this upgrade before, and the last 10% of what I need are missing, and that's what I'm trying to figure out here.

Quote:

I have taken a look at the buttons that you learned and I see that 9 of them are included in the upgrade, which leaves 10 that are not included.


If you look at the "Layout" screen in the upgrade, the first 9 (soft) buttons still point to the signals from the "learned signals" tab, not to the signals in the upgrade. I am unable to reassign those buttons to the signals from the upgrade, because the delete key doesn't work on those soft buttons. That's another bug, which I have seen many times before.

Quote:

Of those 10, 6 can be added, and I have added them. Unfortunately, that leaves 4 that I could not add. The problem is that the RC-5/5x Combo executor only allows for up to 4 RC-5x device codes and those last 4 learned buttons (Blu-Ray, USB, Internet Radio, Online Music) use device codes that aren't in that upgrade.


Where does that limit of 4 come from ? Is it a limitation of the remote ? Or something in RMIR / Remotemaster ?
And how was the AV7705 device upgrade created ? It includes tons of signals. Presumably, all of those had to be learned at one time.

Quote:

If I delete BD(Code1) and BD(Code2) from the upgrade, I could add Internet Radio, Online Music.


Unfortunately, I do need those.

Quote:

If your goal is to avoid using learned signals, you will need to create a second "helper" upgrade which contains the 4 missing buttons. I forget how you do the equivalent of keymoves in the ARRX18G, but Dave can help with that.


My goal is to create a single device upgrade with all the signals I need. I have multiple Marantz receivers in the house (NR1603, SR7011, SR8015), multiple ARRX18G (6 of them), and all the other remotes are already programmed with other components, except for the Marantz receiver components. I will need my new custom Marantz device upgrade to use with the 3 Marantz receivers.

So far, I tried to start with a Marantz (Tuner/1289) preset in the remote, and add my 19 learned signals - but it didn't work.

The next option I would like, if it worked, would be to start from a blank device on the remote, learn all the signals I want from the original remote, and then create a device upgrade from them, that I could share between my 3 remotes.

What I want to avoid doing is typing IR codes by hand. I think it's error-prone, and I just don't understand the process so far. Whenever I have tried to do that, the signals I input ended up not working. I have literally spent over 12 hours on it this week. I don't think Remotemaster has simplified the process at all, quite the opposite. From where I sit, it seems like a software limitation, since the learned component on the remote works fine, but once I get it into RMIR, things get messed up, especially button names, and I'm unable to create a single device upgrade.
If I could just copy learned signals from the "learned signals" tab, and paste them to the buttons tab in the device upgrade, I would be OK with that. I think that's what the convert/append function does, but it actually fails reasons that are still unclear to me.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem here is the "RC-5/5x Combo" executor as it only allows up to 4 RC-5x device codes to be used, and you have more than that. I am not aware of an executor which allows for more, so we would need to write one.

So, here's what I've done for you. I took your original RMIR file, then I made a note of how you had assigned the various functions in the one device upgrade. Then I deleted all the learned signals (which cleared them from the soft keys). Next, I replaced your upgrade with Dave's upgrade and put the button assignments back to how you had them. Then I added a "helper" upgrade with the 4 missing buttons and then I assigned them to buttons in the main upgrade as external functions. So I think this is all you were looking for.

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=26092
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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob,

The Robman wrote:
The problem here is the "RC-5/5x Combo" executor as it only allows up to 4 RC-5x device codes to be used, and you have more than that. I am not aware of an executor which allows for more, so we would need to write one.

So, here's what I've done for you. I took your original RMIR file, then I made a note of how you had assigned the various functions in the one device upgrade. Then I deleted all the learned signals (which cleared them from the soft keys). Next, I replaced your upgrade with Dave's upgrade and put the button assignments back to how you had them. Then I added a "helper" upgrade with the 4 missing buttons and then I assigned them to buttons in the main upgrade as external functions. So I think this is all you were looking for.

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=26092


Thanks for doing all this work for me. I just tested your RMIR image, and it works. All the signals are correct.

I still have many questions / comments .

1) Good to know that deleting entries in the"learned signals" allows clearing the buttons in the layout, but should that really be a required step ? I guess you can't have something in the "learned signals" tab with no device upgrade pointing to it. Maybe the option should be offered to delete the learned signal when hitting the delete key for a button in the layout tab ? Or at least a message explaining the learned signal needs to be deleted first. The current behavior where hitting "delete" does nothing, and the buttons pointing to learned signals can't be reassigned, is super confusing, and looks like a bug, even if it's intentional.

2) Having the extra blank "Marantz helper" device is confusing. Is there any way to get rid of it ? And if not, is the reason a remote limitation, or RMIR limitation (missing executor?) ?

3) I don't understand you started over with Dave's AV7705 upgrade. Did you have to do that ? Was there no other way ?

4) When you added the helper upgrade, how did you actually do that ?
There seems to be multiple steps involved.

a) first you created a "Marantz helper" device with those 4 signals

Did you enter all 4 signals by hand, copied from the "learned signals" screen ?

The values look significantly different, in particular, the OBC and hex command.
Or did you use the "convert to device upgrade" / "new" feature ? When I did the later, I got slightly different values than your helper for the following fields :
EFCS, EFC, RC5x device, RC5x sub-device, hex .
Only the "#", "Name" and "OBC" fields are identical.

b) in the "Marantz audio" device, in the "external buttons" tab, for each of the 4 signals, you have are pointing to the help device by selecting "device type" = "amp", then "setup code = 1057", then type = "hex" then the 2-byte "ECFS/hex" value for each of the 4 keys.

It's rather unintuitive to have to input that much information, vs just selecting, say, "Marantz helper" + "signal name", which would seem to be all that's really necessary in this case, at least from a display/GUI point of view .
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of this is peculiar to the Nevo/Xsight type remotes, so Dave and Graham will have to clarify what is possible and what isn't, I'm by no means an expert with these remotes, in fact this is the first time that I've ever programmed "external functions". In regular remotes, you would just use keymoves.

I didn't use the "convert to upgrade" function for any part of this.

I switched over to Dave's upgrade because yours was missing so many functions, and you said you needed many of them.

The helper upgrade is needed to get the 4 extra buttons, but as to whether it needs to be on the General tab, I don't know, this is a Nevo question.

For the extra upgrade, I just went to the Devices tab, clicked New, then selected the RC-5/5x Combo protocol and entered the remaining device codes, then entered the relevant values on the Functions tab.

I don't know what you're seeing where you say that the device and OBC codes don't match. The image below shows 3 RMIR screens where the first shows the learns for the 4 buttons from the Helper upgrade, the second shows the helper upgrade itself and the third shows the external functions included in the main upgrade. In the first 2 screens, you should be able to see that all 4 buttons use the RC-5x protocol, the device, sub-device and OBCs match, and in the last 2 screens you should be able to see that the hex codes match.


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madbrain



Joined: 09 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robman,

I'm sorry, but I'm still having a hell of a time with this. I added other devices to the remote, and made edits to the order of soft buttons on the "Marantz audio" devices.

I'm seeing a long series of problems that make it impossible for me to customize my remote :
1) edits I make to the soft buttons on the Marantz that use the external functions have no effect when flashed to the remote. Those soft buttons simply don't appear
2) edits I make to the soft buttons on the Marantz that use the external functions disappear after I do a save/reload . Probably related to #1
3) after I make an edit to a soft button that uses an external function, and save the changes by clicking OK at the bottom, if I reopen the device, and go to the "Buttons" tab on top, that tab never displays. probably related to #1
4) I'm trying to customize my X10 "lights" device to add 2 external functions from the Marantz , Movie FX and Music FX. After I assign them to the Yellow and Blue buttons, they don't work when flashed on the remote - no IR signal is sent when I select that device. Very similar problem to 1) above.
5) edits made in step 4 also disappear after save/reload . see problem 2
6) edits made in step 4 also cause a hang when reopening the device . problem 3.

May I know which version of RMIR and Remote Master you are using ? I'm using 2.12 . It seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to external functions.

See file at
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=26095

I'm going to create a Youtube video to shows all these problems as it's fairly hard to describe the test cases. Obviously can't show what's going on the remote itself when flashing, but at least the disappearing changes and display problems in software will be visible.
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madbrain



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See video at

Problems :
1) task error / loading at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9K3IENnQyM&feature=youtu.be&t=0m58s

2) "buttons" tab won't display after adding external functions to X10 layout (yellow/blue keys)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9K3IENnQyM&feature=youtu.be&t=2m04s

3) key assignments for X10 yellow/blue keys that were assigned external functions disappear after doing save & reload
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9K3IENnQyM&feature=youtu.be&t=2m40s

4) keys assignments for Marantz soft keys keys that used external functions disappear after doing save & reload
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9K3IENnQyM&feature=youtu.be&t=2m50s

If there is a version of RMIR that doesn't have these problems, I would gladly rollback. I'm using RMIR 2.12.0 .
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the above works for me. I think what might be happening is your RMIR file is in a protected folder like Program Files. Try moving it to your Documents or Downloads folder or something like that.

Also be aware that gaps in the soft buttons are not allowed. If you want to have blank buttons, you can assign a dummy function with a space for the name or assign a blank icon like so:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=26080
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