JP1 Remotes

gfb107 wrote:From the first post in this thread

key moves that (1) have the same device type and setup code as their bound device button and (2) the device type and setup code match an installed device upgrade will automatically become part of the device upgrade, and not be shown as a keymove)

dolivas27 wrote:Quick question guys when I open a IR file it does not show the key Moves this is with a RS 15-134 Extender xshifted V1.10 remote if I open it in IR803 the Key Moves are there?

Thanks,
dolivas

Hmmm....so what is the point in doing that? Why would you want to hide keymoves just because they meet this criteria? Do they not take up keymove space just like those that don't meet the stated criteria?

A.A.

Greg, while I understand why some keymoves will be hidden from the normal user, and even why the protocol upgrades are hidden, I still think you should at least give us the option of seeing everything that's in the remote.

Otherwise, how will the experts be able to try and figure out what's going on when there are problems if RMIR is hiding half the info.

I know your goal is to eventually have us do away with IR.exe completely, so I'm trying to let you know about some things that, at present, will prevent that from happening.

aa wrote:Hmmm....so what is the point in doing that? Why would you want to hide keymoves just because they meet this criteria? Do they not take up keymove space just like those that don't meet the stated criteria?

The point is that the user does not need to know there is a difference between a keymove and an upgrade. If you had never used IR, it would be less confusing to just assign all the keys in the upgrade without the need to know what was an 'upgradeable' key and what needs a 'keymove'. RM-IR is trying to be a different paradigm than IR - not just duplicate it in Java.

I still have my little youtube video explaining this difference here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB6mAHqeW3I

The Robman wrote:Greg, while I understand why some keymoves will be hidden from the normal user, and even why the protocol upgrades are hidden, I still think you should at least give us the option of seeing everything that's in the remote.

Otherwise, how will the experts be able to try and figure out what's going on when there are problems if RMIR is hiding half the info.

I know your goal is to eventually have us do away with IR.exe completely, so I'm trying to let you know about some things that, at present, will prevent that from happening.

This has been discussed before and is on the bug/feature list(https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=d ... tid=399669). Greg's stance is that he will implement it for experts, but wants to make sure that it it not required for 'normal' users. In other words if there is something the integrated interface paradigm is preventing someone from doing (non-expert task) he wants to fix that rather than duplicate how you would do it in IR.

xnappo

Tell me what how you would respond to this foreseeable questions.

"I'm new to JP1 and I was just testing my new cable. I have programmed several keymoves on my remote using the 994 command, but when I download the remote's memory using RMIR I can't see any of them. Did I accidentally just wipe them out? Actually, I just download the memory using IR.exe and I can see them now. Here's another weird thing that I just noticed, when I change the setup code assigned to the device button, the keymoves suddenly appear again, something weird is going on here."

I still think that all this hiding of information is a bad idea, for ALL users.

Instead, I would like to see the information displayed, with some additional characteristics (like color, shading, new columns, etc) to indicate that it's part of an upgrade, etc.

The Robman wrote:Tell me what how you would respond to this foreseeable questions.
.

RTFM?

Seriously though, color shading with locked text is not a bad idea. Perhaps on a different tab though - I like having my 'real' keymoves uncluttered.

xnappo

What's the definition of a 'real' keymove? I understand that you would regard any keymoves included as part of an upgrade to not be real, but what about keymoves created manually by the user using the 994 command, do you regard those as real?

The Robman wrote:What's the definition of a 'real' keymove? I understand that you would regard any keymoves included as part of an upgrade to not be real, but what about keymoves created manually by the user using the 994 command, do you regard those as real?

A real keymove in RM-IR is any keymove not part of an upgrade.

xnappo

How will RMIR tell the difference between a keymove manually programmed by the user and one added as part of an upgrade?

key moves that (1) have the same device type and setup code as their bound device button and (2) the device type and setup code match an installed device upgrade will automatically become part of the device upgrade, and not be shown as a keymove)

The Robman wrote:Tell me what how you would respond to this foreseeable questions.

"I'm new to JP1 and I was just testing my new cable. I have programmed several keymoves on my remote using the 994 command, but when I download the remote's memory using RMIR I can't see any of them. Did I accidentally just wipe them out? Actually, I just download the memory using IR.exe and I can see them now. Here's another weird thing that I just noticed, when I change the setup code assigned to the device button, the keymoves suddenly appear again, something weird is going on here."

I still think that all this hiding of information is a bad idea, for ALL users.

Instead, I would like to see the information displayed, with some additional characteristics (like color, shading, new columns, etc) to indicate that it's part of an upgrade, etc.

I thought I was the only one, so it's good, Rob, that you posted your thoughts
Because, while I think RMIR is great, for me NOT seeing things I expected is what keeps me from using it. Early on I tried and tried and nitpicked Greg, but eventually gave up.

Guys, I posed this same concern (about hidden keymoves and protocol upgrades in RMIR well over a year ago, and failed to convince Greg of its importance to allow the user to at least SELECT whether or not they are hidden. The silence from the rest of the community was deafening. I welcome your renewed interest, as I think this is absolutely necessary, regardless of paradigms.

As a minimum, you should be able to see what is consuming all of your memory of a particular type without wading through a dozen-or so upgrades, beginner or expert alike.

The point is to manage the assignment of the functions in a device upgrade to buttons in the same place regardless of whether or not the assignment causes a keymove to be generated. That place is in the device upgrade.

In the IR world, you can have to look in 2 places to figure out the button assignments associated with a device upgrade:

• The Devices tab, where you can see the buttons that are in the keymap for the device type and the hex command assigned to the button, if any. If you want to know any other details about the device upgrade (name or notes about the assigned functions, or details about the protocol parameters) you have to launch RM or KM and open the device upgrade file originally used and copy'n'pasted into IR.
• For buttons that are not in the keymap, you have to look at the keymove tab. You can see the EFC and Hex command, and the function name as notes

In the RMIR world, you can see all of that in the one place, regardless of whether the button is in the keymap or not. You open the device upgrade and look at the Layout tab (or Buttons tab if you prefer, or even the Keymap tab). There is a visual indication of which assignments generate keymoves.

The keymoves associated with a device upgrade are NOT hidden, they are just shown and managed in a different place.

In some respects this is similar to how special functions are handled. They take up keymove space, but they are shown separately from "standard".

As IR users, we've been trained to know that some functions assigned to buttons in device upgrades become keymoves, and some do not. The keymoves are exported from RM or KM along with the keymapped functions and pasted in IR in one step, but after that we are responsible for remembering that relationship - IR doesn't maintain it for us.

cauer29 wrote:Hmmm....so what is the point in doing that? Why would you want to hide keymoves just because they meet this criteria? Do they not take up keymove space just like those that don't meet the stated criteria?

The Robman wrote:Greg, while I understand why some keymoves will be hidden from the normal user, and even why the protocol upgrades are hidden, I still think you should at least give us the option of seeing everything that's in the remote.

Otherwise, how will the experts be able to try and figure out what's going on when there are problems if RMIR is hiding half the info.

I agree that there are improvements to be made for expert users.

I don't agree that information has been hidden. It just isn't shown in the same place or way it is shown in IR. You can see what protocols are installed, you just have to look at the details of all the installed device upgrades.

I know your goal is to eventually have us do away with IR.exe completely, so I'm trying to let you know about some things that, at present, will prevent that from happening.

Thanks for the feedback. I am very happy to see you actively trying out RMIR as it evolves, and contributing your thoughts on how it should continue to evolve.

A counter quote from a user who has never used IR before using RM-IR without upgrade keymoves hidden:

"When I am in the main part of the application, there is a tab called 'keymoves'. This appears to be some sort of centralized place to edit the buttons without going into the device key assignment one at a time, however only some of my key assignments are showing up there. Why???"

xnappo

The Robman wrote:Tell me what how you would respond to this foreseeable questions.

"I'm new to JP1 and I was just testing my new cable. I have programmed several keymoves on my remote using the 994 command, but when I download the remote's memory using RMIR I can't see any of them. Did I accidentally just wipe them out? Actually, I just download the memory using IR.exe and I can see them now. Here's another weird thing that I just noticed, when I change the setup code assigned to the device button, the keymoves suddenly appear again, something weird is going on here."

A couple of points.

Once we start using RMIR, how many users actually go back to programming keymoves manually? The expected usage pattern is to add the function to the device upgrade and assign it to the button there, then upload to the remote.

We are talking about a user who really doesn't understand the difference between a keymove and a keymapped function. In fact, unless (s)he learned it from these forums, why would (s)he think a 994 command should show up as a keymove in RMIR? I think it is more intuitive to highlight the device button on the General tab and click the "Edit Device" button to see the details of the installed device upgrade associated with that device, and then see all the known functions for that device, and their assignments, including those (s)he added manually.

I acknowledge there is an inconsistency in what happens when there is no device upgrade installed.

I still think that all this hiding of information is a bad idea, for ALL users.

Instead, I would like to see the information displayed, with some additional characteristics (like color, shading, new columns, etc) to indicate that it's part of an upgrade, etc.

We will consider this, possibly with some form of control to turn this on/off.

The Robman wrote:How will RMIR tell the difference between a keymove manually programmed by the user and one added as part of an upgrade?

key moves that (1) have the same device type and setup code as their bound device button and (2) the device type and setup code match an installed device upgrade will automatically become part of the device upgrade, and not be shown as a keymove)

It doesn't distinguish between the two. The manually added keymove gets added automatically to the device upgrade, and is managed from there.

Realistically, though, once users discover how much easier it is to program JP1 remotes through a cable, how many continue to use manual programming?

Extenders even disable manual programming altogether.