Toggle functions - how to stay in sync?

[mdavej]

I see. There are probably no discretes for your sanyo. You can probably track the input state with a few toadtog bits, but I'd have to think about exactly how to do it. Will anything else get you to a known state, like entering a channel number or pressing last channel?

Although it's unlikely you'll find anything, you could do a search of all 255 codes. It looks like EFC 244 is reset, so skip that one.

[vickyg2003]

I am not fixed on the PC solution. It's just that without any good ideas on how to do it more simply I thought the PC solution was the best way. My wife is going crazy with the system now and I want something that works well. I would rather put it in the remote if I can and it works well.

I found the file here for the tv but I am not sure what to do with it. I am just trying to get started with JP1 stuff. I know the file is to be loaded into a program but I expect a few things could be learned just by looking at the file contents with a text editor

Jim, it sounds like you are very, very new to the tools. May I suggest you look into extenders and see what they can do for you. If you have a system that is so complex that it is inimidating the family, an extender can be your best friend. One of the best features an extender is "temporary device selection". This allows you to write macros that can change to any device button make the adjustments, and then transfer back.

There is also the LKP which once you use one, you won't be able to live without. The LKP is the most intuitive control I've found. Nobody has trouble remembering that if the TV isn't set up to view the DVD, holding the button down will set up everything for you.

The thing to remember is that bad automation, can turn even the most willing person in the family into a technophobe. So you want to make things as intuitive and foolproof as possible. Since you have so many TOADs, (Toggle Only Activated Devices) and you want only selected items on/off at a time instead of a simple ALL on or ALL off macro, then perhaps you should leave that out of activity macro. Let her turn on/off the equipment she needs. A ToadTog can keep track of your equipment, but it does take some user knowledge and discipline.

It all starts with a good design. Knowing what's available, and how to use the tools is something that often escapes users. I know I was very happy with my remote with just two simple macros and a couple of keymoves. Then 6 years into the JP1 experience I learned about extenders. Its made such a huge difference in the whole jp1 experience. I could never go back to an unextended remote!

[xnappo]

Jim,

Please do post your equipment list. There are probably 'discrete on/off' codes for some of it, and also 'discrete hacks' for others.

What do I mean by discrete hacks? Well here are some examples:

Some DVD/BluRay Players - hitting the Play button turn on the player, so 'Play' is discrete on.

XBOX360 - menu button turn it on - so use menu for discrete on

Cisco cable boxes - option in menus to power on keypress - so use 0->exit as discrete on.

I used to use long presses as Vicky suggests, but now I just have things set up like a harmony. A press of CBL switches both the remote and my receiver/TV to watch cable as well as turning on the TV/receiver and changing the remote around appropriately.

Of course, once you really get into JP1, you *never* buy equipment without knowing if it has discrete codes first.

Finally - someone mentioned just leaving things on. My Tivo, for instance, draws only 1W more on vs. in standby - so I just leave it on and program my remotes so 'normal' users can't power it off (made power off shift-power).

xnappo

[cauer29]

keeping a stack of equipment in sync with the remote that is using the ToadTOG protocol of an extender is not as difficult as you think. There are a couple of ways of dealing with this, but they are all based on one simple rule that will make things reasonable. Tell everyone in the house to NEVER TURN THE DEVICE on or off on the device. Then you can either:

1: as Vicky suggested, having a regular or short press use the discrete's and run the macros as you want to turn everything on and make sure everything is set up properly (i.e. the DVD button turns on the audio, TV and sets the inputs for the DVD and turns on the DVD player) Then you use a long press that just toggles the DVD in case it gets into the wrong state.

2: do the manual method that if the remote gets out of sync with the equipment stand up, walk across the room and change the state. Since there are only two states (on,off) it's pretty simple.

I have two TOADs in my rack and I doubt that they get out of sync more than once a month. It's not a huge issue.


How I have mine set up is that I have the devcie buttons with macros on them to set things up (i.e. the example in option 1 above) and the power button turns everything off. I didn't choose to put short/longs on the device buttons since it's easier for me to tell the others in the house that if they push the dvd button and the dvd player goes off, get up and turn it on. Same for the VCR.

But if you switch from DVD to VCR in a single "session" both of them are on until you push the "all off" power macro.

one final note: To use the ToadTOG function you're going to have to get into extenders. ToadTOG allows you to "simulate" a discrete on/off by keeping a state in the remote and only sending the power toggle when the unit is in a certain state (i.e. if you are sending a discrete on you either send the power toggle or nothing depending on what the remote thinks about the unit)

I'm sure that it's not a huge issue for YOU when your toadtogs get out of sync, but imagine that you have a 93 year old grandmother living in your house. Are you going to be able to explain to her how to do long keypress to fix it when it gets out of sync? What if she was trying to watch TV but it's the cable box that is off when it should be on? How are you going to explain to her, that she has to find the button for the cable box and do a long keypress to fix it? Are you going to be able to explain to her that she shouldn't ever turn the TV on or off by the button on the front of the TV? I see that you're also advocating pushing the pwr button on the unit to fix toadtog out of sync. First you're prohibiting it, then requiring it?

People are used to one keypress on the remote doing something in a fraction of a second. If a macro takes 15 seconds to complete, due to multiple devices that won't respond for x seconds after pwr up and or long sequences needed to overcome the lack of discrete input selection, the user has to keep the remote pointed at the equipment way longer than they're gonna have patience for. 93 year old grandmothers and other technophobes really appreciate remotes working the way they expect. One key press and they don't have to hold the remote pointed at the equipment for 15 seconds after that.

As Vicky pointed out, if you implement bad automation, you make the situation worse, not better. You have to make it simple for the least tech savvy person that'll be using it and that system ends up being better for everyone. A 93 year old grandmother may be an extreme case and there is a continuum of tech savvieness between the person who setup the whole system and the 93 year old grandmother. Everyone benefits when it's as simple as it can be.

Don't get me wrong. I love the capabilities of our JP1 remotes, but toadtog isn't a feature that I'll ever use. Even without a 93 year old grandmother in the house, once you've lived with a full state sensing system, you'll scoff at amateur solutions like toadtog.

A.A.

[The Robman]

Jim14, I've started editing your first post to include a list of your devices. So far you've only mentioned 3 devices and you've only given us the brand/model for the TV.

Could you please edit the list to include the brand and model for each device that you want to control with your remote.

[The Robman]

once you've lived with a full state sensing system, you'll scoff at amateur solutions like toadtog.

Would you be willing to do a full write up on your state sensing system and post it in the file section?

[vickyg2003]

Of course, once you really get into JP1, you *never* buy equipment without knowing if it has discrete codes first.

Considering the signal type and the # of discretes is a huge factor if you become obsessed. For example, I used to absolutely love Philips equipment, because I got a lot of features for the money, but once I got into automation, I gave it all away, because its such a pain to automate.

I used to use long presses as Vicky suggests, but now I just have things set up like a harmony. A press of CBL switches both the remote and my receiver/TV to watch cable as well as turning on the TV/receiver and changing the remote around appropriately

All well and good until you need a feature on the TV while watching your DVD. I prefer a soft touch to get back to the TV controls without changing inputs. But then I use multiple remotes with each device, so I can't have anything too rigid. Anywhere you sit down at my house, you'll have full control of the entertainment center. That's not the harmony way. With the low cost of these remote UEI remotes, its silly not to have your own. (Says the lone female of has lived with a group of males that all have to have a remote in their hand even when they are asleep in front of the TV. )

[cauer29]

Jim,

XBOX360 - menu button turn it on - so use menu for discrete on

Finally - someone mentioned just leaving things on. My Tivo, for instance, draws only 1W more on vs. in standby - so I just leave it on and program my remotes so 'normal' users can't power it off (made power off shift-power).

xnappo

XBOX 360 has discrete on and off cmds, though you do need a strategy to deal with toggle state in the MCE protocol.

The idea of leaving things on can be effective, but it can be hard to convince everyone that leaving a piece of equipment on, is not going to burn the house down. How many people remember encountering folks with VCRs that couldn't understand how it could record if the TV wasn't on? I knew of one person that wouldn't record anything without the TV on and someone there to watch it, lest the house burn down because of the TV and VCR left on.

BTW on your TiVO, when it's "on", is it not continuously recording whatever channel it's tuned to? That's how it worked when I had one. Actually turning the unit off, was buried layers deep in the menus. If "on" only takes 1 additional watt Vs. standby, then I'd expect standby must be a significant level of power consumption.

A.A.

[cauer29]

once you've lived with a full state sensing system, you'll scoff at amateur solutions like toadtog.

Would you be willing to do a full write up on your state sensing system and post it in the file section?

I have considered doing a full write-up, though it would be quite a lot of work. I should probably do the simpler of the 2 systems I have, first. That one is just 3 devices, TV (RC5), stereo receiver, DVR. Only the DVR has discrete on/off. That system would be enough to cover the basics of state sensing.

A.A.

[xnappo]

XBOX 360 has discrete on and off cmds, though you do need a strategy to deal with toggle state in the MCE protocol.

Really? What is the code for them? The upgrade I have from the files section didn't have these.

BTW on your TiVO, when it's "on", is it not continuously recording whatever channel it's tuned to? That's how it worked when I had one. Actually turning the unit off, was buried layers deep in the menus. If "on" only takes 1 additional watt Vs. standby, then I'd expect standby must be a significant level of power consumption.

Yep. The Tivo is pretty much always on, the standby does not do much. 40 watts vs. 39 watts.

xnappo

[jeajea]

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=9274

I currently us an extended 10820N to control 10 devices (9 device keys) and 14 "activities". If you are starting from scratch you need to load an upgrade for each device (and print the key maps). The next step would be to create power on, off and toggle toad togs for each device that needs them. You use the discrete on /off keys if available or shift power in the toad togs. Then starting with the TV create and test a macro for each device key to turn on and select inputs for the "activity"

My Macros set the volume keys to AUD if the AV receiver is on and to TV if the AV receiver is off. They would be a lot less complex if the AVR or TV was always used for volume.

Code: Select all

Key
CBL  Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD Cable 
SAT  Seagate Free Agent Theater + (FAT+)
TV   Vizio SV420M TV has discrete on and off and discrete inputs
VCR  Sony SLV-789HF VCR has discrete on and off
CD   Pioneer BDP-320 Blu Ray has discrete on and off
DVD  Pioneer DV-410V-K DVD has discrete off - play will turn it on if it is off
PVR  Samsung DVD-VR357 DVD recorder plus VCR
AUD  Onkyo TX-SR501 AV receiver has discrete off
AUX1 Snapstream Firefly Mini and Mono price HDX410TA HDMI switch remote not used for power control (media PC)

To start an activity it is necessary to turn on one or more devices, set the key groups, select a TV input, select a AVR input, and select a HDMI switch input. If the AVR is on the volume keys are set to AVR. If the AVR is off the volume keys are set to TV

If a power toad tog state gets out of sync with the device, device shift power will toggle the device power without changing the toad tog state.

Because the power macros use a toad tog toggle when needed you can use the power key to toggle power for the current device without creating a sync problem. For instance if you were watching a DVD and hit power the DVD player will go off and the remote will remember that it is now off. If you do a LKP CAB without first doing a DVD power the remote will remember that the DVD player is still on.

Once your macros are correct the remote won’t get out of sync unless you don’t keep it pointed at the equipment until the current macro completes, you use the power button on the device or you use a different remote.

A more complete description is in the txt file included in the zip file

[Jim14]

I have added my equipment to the OP.

There is no zip file associated with the TV text file I downloaded so no explanation. Maybe this is non-standard...

[The Robman]

I have added my equipment to the OP.

Thanks

There is no zip file associated with the TV text file I downloaded so no explanation. Maybe this is non-standard...

Upgrade files are usually just text files, that you can then load into RM or KM to exit. Jim (jeajea) used a zip file to group together his IR file and a description file to demonstrate how he's using Toadtog's.

[cauer29]

XBOX 360 has discrete on and off cmds, though you do need a strategy to deal with toggle state in the MCE protocol.

Really? What is the code for them? The upgrade I have from the files section didn't have these.

BTW on your TiVO, when it's "on", is it not continuously recording whatever channel it's tuned to? That's how it worked when I had one. Actually turning the unit off, was buried layers deep in the menus. If "on" only takes 1 additional watt Vs. standby, then I'd expect standby must be a significant level of power consumption.

Yep. The Tivo is pretty much always on, the standby does not do much. 40 watts vs. 39 watts.

xnappo

Discrete off is OBC 41 (efc 075). Discrete on is OBC 42 (efc 099). Non-discrete on/off is OBC 12 (efc 050).

A.A.

[xnappo]

I used to use long presses as Vicky suggests, but now I just have things set up like a harmony. A press of CBL switches both the remote and my receiver/TV to watch cable as well as turning on the TV/receiver and changing the remote around appropriately

All well and good until you need a feature on the TV while watching your DVD. I prefer a soft touch to get back to the TV controls without changing inputs. But then I use multiple remotes with each device, so I can't have anything too rigid. Anywhere you sit down at my house, you'll have full control of the entertainment center. That's not the harmony way. With the low cost of these remote UEI remotes, its silly not to have your own. (Says the lone female of has lived with a group of males that all have to have a remote in their hand even when they are asleep in front of the TV. )

Yes - I have 5 Atlas remotes in service, three for one stack and two for the upstairs. So TOADTOG is really not an option.

As far as getting to other devices, if my end-users have to do that, then I have failed. If I need to do it, I just put my hand over the transmitter(and if I have to do this more than once a month that also means I have failed).

I found that while long-press was fine for my wife, visitors/babysitters still had a hard time it it.

Of course the other nice thing about an all short press setup is that the macro configurations are significantly simpler.

Discrete off is OBC 41 (efc 075). Discrete on is OBC 42 (efc 099). Non-discrete on/off is OBC 12 (efc 050).

Thanks. I will see if I can find the version I downloaded and update it.

xnappo