JP1.X upgrades via MP3 files?? Why not??

[Ex-Navy]

After researching Ir protocols, and reading this interesting post:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8584.

I got to thinking......

It's possible to do all of this JP1.x upgrading by sharing MP3 files.

Imagine that a JP1.X cable that plugs into your sound card via your headphone jack.

It has to be possible, and here is why:

As a communications technician in the Navy, one of the basic things we learned is called modulation. This is a method of combining 2 frequencies
so the 2 could be sent over the air waves.

In IR technology this same method is accomplished by taking 1's and 0's (protocol) and combining with a carrier (36khz-40khz as an example) to send over the air waves.

The IR protocol is just a stream of 1's and 0's which have their own unique time gaps, common start gap, and common space gaps between each of these. This establishes the unique protocol. Protocols specify the time gaps for each item.

Now take these common time gaps and fill them with 38khz and you have an IR signal.

San at http://www.sbprojects.com/knowledge/ir/ir.htm uses an excellent animated gif to demonstrate this principle.

He uses the term "marks" and "spaces" to demonstrate this.

Let's send an IR signal indicating a 1 then a 0 using a 38khz carrier.

1=1 sec
0=2 sec

Start=3 secs
space=.5 secs of silence

Our sequence would be a 3 second gap (start) then .5 seconds (space) then 1 second (1) then .5 seconds (space) then 2 seconds (0)

In each of these gaps except the silence (space), we let out a 38 khz signal.

We can see that we have a standard protocol with a standard carrier (38khz)

Now.............

Let's do the exact same thing but with a 10khz carrier.

Same result except we see a 10khz being let out in the same sequence.

Our carrier is 10khz (easily made using most sound card software mixers)

Lets make the 10 khz carrier the standard MP3 carrier.

A JP1.x cable is just sending 1's and 0's to a remote via a 6 pin connection. It connects to your parallel, serial or USB jack.

Dial up modems did it for the internet before huge files came along.

Let's see if we can't make one work with a simple headphone and mic jack???

Take that 10khz being turned on and off and save it as an MP3 file.

Send it to someone. Let them plug their JP1.x cable into the headphone jack, play the MP3 and have their remote upgraded.

(could even do using an IPOD......eheheh)

A new method??? I am sure it is.................

If a JP1.x audio receive cable can download upgrades via MP3 then we should also have a JP1.x transmit cable with an IR LED to send button commands from an MP3.

Hint: (Remember that some old remotes like URC-9960 could be upgraded via a WAV file, even some could be done over a telephone line)

Maybe this idea will insight a good chat.

[Evan_s]

The Audio upgrade works by using a receiver that picks up the magnetic coil from the speaker/phone not by picking up the sound directly. We do currently support creating Wav upgrades for this process with the right tools.

When we create an upgrade for a remote it is not stored in the way you describe. We don't just store a sequence of on and off times. We store a description on how to generate that sequence. The upgrade stores the protocol that the signal uses. This can be built into the remote by the MFG or uploaded along with the upgrade. We also specify which device and sub-device the protocol uses if applicable. Finally we specify buttons that are used and what code they send. The process you describe is more along the lines of what the remote does when learning from another remote. It is a much less efficient process which is why the remotes can store a lot less information in learns than they can in upgrades.

As far as using the sound card as an output instead of a serial, parallel what ever I don't think thats likely to be possible or a good idea depending on what remote style you look at. For the jp1.x remotes they internally implement a serial protocol and work very well with a simple serial or usb cable. I have a hard time believing that it would be enough of a difference in cost to make it worth while and it's definitely not going to be more reliable.

For the jp1 remotes they use a bit banging technique that would probably convert better to this suggestion but I'm not sure it can generate the needed voltages. If you look at the simple parallel cable it commonly has issues with the parallel ports voltages and matching what is in the remote. Additionally these remotes seem to be getting phased out in general and replaced by the jp1.2 and 1.3 remotes so I'm not sure anyone would want to invest a lot of time in something new or them.

I also think that even if we did get this whole process working that we would end up treating it like the current wav upgrades are handled. We distribute IR, RM and KM files and if someone needs a wav upgrade they generate the file. Reading in a MP3 file and processing it to be able to edit an upgrade would not be a simple process.

[Ex-Navy]

I am a "hey, can this be done" type guy.

Not to change the way things are being done but "hey, can it be done" as
a method.

If one looks at the way any type of file gets from a PC to a microcontroller there are different methods.

A magnetic coil just converts voltages varying at a certain rate (protocol) to sounds. (a speaker) or a microphone (the other way around).
Whether it's your voice or a 10khz signal being turned on or off at a certain rate (protocol) those voltages need to be TTL to speak with the micro controller.

I am wondering if a KM file, an upgrade file, etc etc, downloaded into remote, can it be done using an audio carrier? That's what dial up internet used? How big is a large upgrade file.

At the end of it, whether you email me a file or I download it to my remote via a JP1.x serial, parallel, USB cable, can it be done using audio?

After all, serial data whether through a serial cable, USB, phone lines etc, etc are predefined protocols that simply convert TTL in one form or another so my PC can talk to my remote's micro controller.

Just one of many fashions.

1's and 0's, on & offs, mark and spaces may be sent in different ways.

If the average guy/gal is intimidated with serial cables, parallel, USB, software programs, he/she may find it less daunting a JP1.x audio version.

It's just delivering the same data to the same place in a different way.

Who knows.

[Mark Pierson]

Imagine that a JP1.X cable that plugs into your sound card via your headphone jack.

We've had enough minor issues with interfaces that communicate directly with the remote that I can't even begin to imagine the headaches involved with interfacing an audio circuit to a JP1 remote and making it work.

If the average guy/gal is intimidated with serial cables, parallel, USB, software programs, he/she may find it less daunting a JP1.x audio version.

Mr. or Mrs. Average are going to be just as intimidated by an audio interface as they would be serial or parallel. And the sofware side never disappears completely.

[Mark Pierson]

1's and 0's, on & offs, mark and spaces may be sent in different ways.

As Evan already pointed out, JP1 upgrades are not a sequence of 1's and 0's. They're a hex representation of data used by the remote to create an IR stream to be transmitted.

[mr_d_p_gumby]

Imagine that a JP1.X cable that plugs into your sound card via your headphone jack.

We've had enough minor issues with interfaces that communicate directly with the remote that I can't even begin to imagine the headaches involved with interfacing an audio circuit to a JP1 remote and making it work.

Even if it would work, it would still share the same big limitation as is the case now with the WAV file upgrades: the communication is one-way, and you have no way to read back information from the remote to preserve what is there already.

In addition, the JP1 interface is an I2C communication protocol which needs both clock and data signals, as well as some way of dealing with the acknowledge bits. The complexity of a device which could convert audio to I2C would be several orders of magnitude more than the current interfaces and would be beyond reach for DIY builders. JP1.X interfaces are based on "standard" serial communications, but require that the communication be two-way. Audio WAV file upgrades are only possible on those remotes that have both the hardware and software built in to perform the function--it can't be added to a remote that is missing one or the other.

[Ex-Navy]

This single chip accepts the I2C bus standard as input and outputs
audio tones. It's $3

This internet telephone uses the I2c bus to generate DTMF (audio) tones.

http://www.eutecticsinc.com/Documentati ... atures.pdf

Hex by the way is 1's and 0's at the bit level.

[Capn Trips]

Just one question.

Let's presume that you design a cable that connects the 6-pin connector of a JP1/1.x remote to the stereo mini-jack of a sound card.
Let's presume that somebody figures out a program to convert the data that IR sends to the remote's EEPROM/Flash ROM into an audio stream that can be accepted by the remote via your magic cable.
Let's presume that somebody writes a program that allows you tailor an upgrade for a particular remote (since the "library" of upgrades in the file section will NEVER have EACH upgrade tailored for EACH JP1/1.x remote!)(Oh, that last one has already been done - TWICE! - it's called KM and RM)

How is this going to be in any way easier or simpler or "more intuitive" for the user to implement?

You seem determined to do this.

Then please do and report back on your results.

[Mark Pierson]

Hex by the way is 1's and 0's at the bit level.

Not exactly in this case. The 1's and 0's you're talking about are those found in the IR stream. The hex data we send to the remote's EEPROM is not a direct representation of that. It tells the remote which IR protocol to select from its library and the actual commands it is to send using that protocol. More specifically, the hex data tells the remote what signal to send when a given button is pressed. It does not tell the remote how to create the IR stream, nor is it in any way a representation of that stream. The upgrade hex is more akin to assembly code.

[Ex-Navy]

We are speaking about 2 different things.

Files generated in Keymaster, Remotemaster are saved and/or subsequently transmitted serially, whether by a RS232, Parallel or USB cable to a 6 pin connector.

The file downloaded via these cables has data. Whether it be the protocol for the remote to use, button mapping, macros, etc etc etc.

That data file information had to be converted to serial data so it could be sent serially to the remote's 6 pin connector.

Can another method of transferring that data file a serial audio file?
A simple little audio circuit that takes the file data and sends it via
an audio link, not a USB cable, Parallel cable or Serial cable but just
another input/output to a computer.

[Mark Pierson]

We are speaking about 2 different things.

I think we're on the same wavelength now.

Can another method of transferring that data file a serial audio file?
A simple little audio circuit that takes the file data and sends it via
an audio link, not a USB cable, Parallel cable or Serial cable but just
another input/output to a computer.

I understand what you're trying to say. The problem is that, as Mike said above, it would only be one way. To be effective, you need to send the entire EEPROM image to the remote, not just a specific upgrade, or key move, or macro (also an inherent problem with the current wav upgrade option). To me, that fact alone makes it much more complicated than the current options.

Factor in the fact that JP1 becomes more useful when you can learn an OEM signal, decode it, and then build an upgrade. To do this, you need to be able to read from the remote, which is going to require the appropriate interface cable.

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't see any advantage to your idea over anything already available.

[Evan_s]

I think part of it is he's talking about it on 2 different levels and not realizing quite the implications of it all.

1) Yes it should be theoretically possible to built a serial connection using a head phone/speaker jack as an alternative to a standard serial or usb cable.

I agree whats the point. Both serial and usb are still very common and I can't imagine a computer that's able to run the software that doesn't have at least one if not both. As just a cable alternative it really doesn't provide any benefit. If we were using some obscure connection type I could see it but we're not.

2) Avoiding having to use the programs by downloading a mp3 or wav and playing it back with any standard player and using his proposed cable.

From his posts here and his other post about just building an upgrade file from captured information I think that he doesn't really understand the process or the difficulty involved in replacing it. To have something functional you're talking about creating some sort of web based app that handles most of the functions of RM/KM and IR to allow assigning of buttons to handle different remotes and preferences to then generate an audio file to be downloaded. Basically a total rewrite to replace all of our major tools since it would need to handle everything from building the upgrade to all the macro/keymove assignments too. It would be a cool idea and could definitely make Jp1 a lot more harmony like on the user friendly side but it's also a heck of a lot of work and is not likely to match the functionality of the existing tools let alone add anything new.

Ex-Navy

I don't want to discourage you. It's great to see a new member here getting interested in things and feedback is always welcome. I would just suggest you get a little more experience with tools we do have and the processes of using them before you start suggesting major changes.

[Ex-Navy]

It is interesting.

A person comes here to ask "hey can this be done".

And one gets "why would you want to replace it"

I am not trying to replace anything, nor modify "your" program.

I'm not trying to "rock the boat".

I am simply asking if it is feasible.

I think maybe I have run into a "click" that you cannot disturb what is
going on here or make any waves here.

For someone or anyone to reply "I don't see why you would want to do that" is odd to me.

I wonder how this whole JP thing started. Did someone say "why would you want to modify a remote" Did that discourage you??

Sorry if I offended anyone by asking "hey, can this be done"

Great help..........

[gfb107]

Nobody has been offended, and certainly nobody meant to offend you. I hope we haven't offended you.

It is interesting and fun to explore the "can we do this" type questions.

Having said that, you have to understand that everyone here contributes on a voluntary basis, as they have time. Time is the most precious commodity here. So before exploring "can we do this" in great detail, it's very important to ask the question "is this worth doing" because the time spent in this discusson will be time taken away from the other activities here.

In this particular case, you're talking about a completely new interface (physical and logical) between the PC and the JP1 remote. It's a huge undertaking. I'm sure it could be done. But it is strictly a one way connection (PC -> remote).

We already have experience with a one way, audio-style programming interface, which is conceptually similar to your proposal. This is for the so called modem-upgradable remotes. We've learned from using that interface that although it can be useful, a bi-directional interface is at least an order of magnitude more useful. And we already have a working bi-directional interface.

We're just trying to make the best use of the limited time we all have.
I hope you understand.

[Ex-Navy]

Yes, this is all a volunteer effort.

We don't have to reply nor take any time in a topic post if we are not interested in it.

I am not interested nor did I intend for anyone to contemplate designing
a whole new interface.

I was asking if the current serial transfer method of downloading an image, a file, whatever is sent to my JP capable remote could be done using MP3 or WAV.

I don't know what you guys call the entire image or file that is sent via the JP cable.

And for my own reasons and possibly others, it is important to me why I want to do it this way. Why?? Because maybe it can.

I am not trying to change the way things are done around here.

Just wondering if it can be done and hoping someone would provide some positive, healthy, exchange of information.

Well, Ex-Navy, the information transferred on the serial cable is a "rmdu file, a rocket file, a car file, and uses handshaking"

The handshaking would have blown my idea out of the water. Audio input can't handshake. Move on Ex-navy

As in horse racing, sometimes the horses have the blinders on and don't see what's next to them.

Take a look at Robman's topic post, Anyone interested in a project??

Other people hacked the remote, found a way to maybe speak to it using a 3 pin connection.

Sometimes they are other languages and other way to speak a language if you get my drift.

I am a member of another forum. One where people, Mr/Mrs Average from all over the planet have problems with their remotes.

We teach them to check and see if the the IR LED flashes while watching the remote through a cellphone camera/webcam/digital camera.

But what if the IR receiver on the box, dvd, tv, cd player, etc, etc is broken. How do we offer support for that?

Well, who knows, maybe we could invent a way to email them an IR emulator (mp3 or wav) file that when used with a plug in headphone adaptor or mic adaptor they could send a "recording" of what is happening.

In my quest to answer these internal questions, the fact is, I am here to gather information, information I don't know about. Protocols, IR, files, map buttons, etc, etc.

It's just a question...........

(hmmmm, forgive the pun....blown out of the water.....get my drift.....rock the boat.......ok this Navy thing has.....never mind)