Some confusions

[talez]

Okay, this is definitely a beginner beginner (yes, beginerx2) question.

DISCLAIM: the following questions are not meant to insult, or anger anyone, it is merely for personal evaluation purpose.

I will appreciate any constructed answers, discussion or ideas.

1) from reading the intro and "What and Why JP1", I got the impression that it is possible to program more than two remotes to urc-8910 through jp1; I have three remotes that I had to have urc-8910 learn their buttons, however it ran out of memory on my last set of buttons. And I could not therefore create any macros. So what I am confused about is that, starting with a brand new urc-8910, if I manually learn the buttons, it runs out of memory; but if I transfer the learned buttons with jp1 and create upgrades, it is fine. Can someone explain why? Lets narrow the problem to a smaller set, assuming the urc has one learning button, and 8 device buttons. Lets aslo assume the other 8 remotes also only have one button each. However, after 2 remotes are fully learned, the urc runs out of memory. So how is it with 8 device upgrades with jp1, all 8 can be learned?

2) With urc-8910 + jp1 cable at $46, plus shipping and tax, it'll go about $60, plus the time learning and making the RDF upgrades (at least 3 hours). It'll total around $90 to $100. So why not just get a $85 MX-500? Is it jp1+urc-8910 better than MX-500?

TIA.

[whompus]

When you make the upgrade you will no longer need the learned commands because they will be in the upgrade. Therefore you will delete the learned and then have room for more learned commands. The remote has 3 areas of memory 1 for moves and macros another for upgrades and the 3rd for learned.

Also about the upgrades take a look in the file section here. You may not have to make many if any. There is a mass amount already made there.

About the mx 500 I have never used it. I don't think it is jp1.

[mr_d_p_gumby]

1) from reading the intro and "What and Why JP1", I got the impression that it is possible to program more than two remotes to urc-8910 through jp1; I have three remotes that I had to have urc-8910 learn their buttons, however it ran out of memory on my last set of buttons. And I could not therefore create any macros. So what I am confused about is that, starting with a brand new urc-8910, if I manually learn the buttons, it runs out of memory; but if I transfer the learned buttons with jp1 and create upgrades, it is fine. Can someone explain why? Lets narrow the problem to a smaller set, assuming the urc has one learning button, and 8 device buttons. Lets aslo assume the other 8 remotes also only have one button each. However, after 2 remotes are fully learned, the urc runs out of memory. So how is it with 8 device upgrades with jp1, all 8 can be learned?

You are making an assumption that "learning" is the only method a universal remote can use. While some universal remotes (like the MX-500) can only use learning as a means of re-creating the original IR signal, a remote like the URC-8910 uses learning to augment it's basic operation. Instead, it contains a very large library of IR codes that it knows how to create. This library can be added to via JP1. We use learning as a means of identifying an unknown IR signal, and then use that information to create a new "upgrade" to the library. Once that is done, the learned data is no longer needed.

The other point to note is that "learning" is really not an accurate description of the process. A better term would be "recording". When a remote learns an IR command, it saves the raw information needed in order to play the command back. This tends to use a fairly large amount of memory in comparison to the methods used by an upgrade for a JP1 remote.

2) With urc-8910 + jp1 cable at $46, plus shipping and tax, it'll go about $60, plus the time learning and making the RDF upgrades (at least 3 hours). It'll total around $90 to $100. So why not just get a $85 MX-500? Is it jp1+urc-8910 better than MX-500?

I think you'll find that your math here is flawed. Many JP1 users bought a URC-8810w from WalMart for less than $20, and built a JP1 cable from junkbox parts. That adds up to much less than $85. In fact, many JP1 users have more than one JP1 remote (for bedrooms, etc.). At $85 each for the MX-500, that would add up pretty quickly. And they don't cry (too much) when the dog chews up the remote, since it's cheap to replace, and easy to load the information into a new remote. I would also hazard a guess that there would be some "learning and making" time with the MX-500 as well, so it would cost more than $85 by your math.

Is a JP1 remote better than an MX-500? We're a little biased around here, so our answer would be yes, in most cases. It all depends on what you want from the remote. Quite a few JP1 users own the MX-500, and find that they still need to have a JP1 remote to create commands for the MX-500 to learn.

[ElizabethD]

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1009
You can start with How easy it is in the above link

Completed after interruption, sorry:
'What and Why' is a valuable reference, but it does get into technical details faster than 'How easy is it' which I think covers not only why but how to go about making super remotes out of the cheap ones. I've read about people who have something like 12 devices in a remote permitting 7 or 8. So the apparent learning capacity limitation just is not an obstacle.

[talez]

Hi! Thank you very much for the replies, I am glad I asked the question here. I couldn't justify going the jp1 route by arguing among myself (don't get me wrong, I am not really arguing with myself. ).

Your answers totally clear all my doubts about jp1 route. Thanks to whompus detailed mentioning of the separate memories, that made total sense to me. I read his reply last night and eagerly typed a thank you reply but didn't end up click on the reply button.

ElizabethD, I have glanced through "how easy it is", but I was uncertain about the memory layout; and I couldn't figure out how an upgrade wouldn't run out of memory, so I stopped reading.

mr_d_p_gumby, maybe I shouldn't have gotten the 8910 (paid $38 out-the-door from bestbuy). I only have one receiver, one old vcr (no remote), one dvd player, and one TV need to be programed. Can I get a jp1 cable from a local store?

[gjarboni]

Can I get a jp1 cable from a local store?

Forgive me for jumping in, but JP1 cables aren't sold at any major retailers. But you can check out several people who make and sell JP1 cables in the Marketplace Forum (under Miscelaneous).

[whompus]

Glad to be of any help I can. My info comes from these guys. It is just that they are mostly tech guys and there answers tend to be so. Mostly a good thing. I have learned to break it down somewhat.

[ElizabethD]

My info comes from these guys.

Let me join in the whompus theme; it only seems proper: ME TOO. I've learned everything, the little bit I know, from these guys (the EXPERTS) here also

BTW if you happen to have a laptop, you may want to go the ultra-cable route from filebug, which is where I got mine, 'cause the simple cable might not work as well due to voltage differences between the 8910 and the laptops. If you don't you might have to play games with removing the batteries, putting them backwards, all sorts of methods which you might find to be a nuisance.

[jeptha]

Mike England makes a good point. Many people around here a little biased toward jp1 (that is the name of this playground, after all ;). When I got into the JP1 scene, I got the 8811-jp1 & the MX500 package for about $130 at remotecentral and I love them both. The MX500 has a bulk and strength feel to it and I like the screen, while the 8811 feels a little like the Tivo peanut that I'm used to. The MX500 has a huge memory, but the ability to completely redesign your remote from a pc is so totally tech-cool that it's fun. I've found that the signal from my MX500 is stronger than the one from the 8811, but both are very good.
And of course, that amount of help available is amazing. I'm beginning to suspect that some of our experts got that way by sitting around the store playing with their JP1's while improving KM, RM, and IR. :P
So join in the party; there's lot of eager and willing help to get you up and running.

[jeptha]

or did I get them from surfremote..? It's good thing the remotes work so well since my brain seems to be going....

[classicsat]

if I manually learn the buttons, it runs out of memory; but if I transfer the learned buttons with jp1 and create upgrades, it is fine. Can someone explain why?

Basically as said, a learned signal is a a recording ( a bit for bit copy of the IR signal), and takes quite a bit of memory.
To be fair though, I think the remote is a bit smart, in that it records the carrier frequency, then the times of when the carrier is on, and when it is off. Still, that takes up memory.

An upgrade is basically instructions to create an IR signal, with a few bytes defining specs of the signal, and usually a byte for each key, plus sometimes several bytes for a protocol upgrade (whch is a little program to create a specific format of IR signal, if a stock one doesn't work), there fore much more memory efficient (I have at least 2/3 of my equipment on my 8011 as upgrades).

2) With urc-8910 + jp1 cable at $46, plus shipping and tax, it'll go about $60, plus the time learning and making the RDF upgrades (at least 3 hours). It'll total around $90 to $100. So why not just get a $85 MX-500? Is it jp1+urc-8910 better than MX-500?

TIA.

Don't know about how you can program the MX500 (seems to me it is not PC programable at all), but JP1 allows me to program the remote to the nitty-gritty level I need. I don't go as far as extenders, but do have several macros and keymoves it would have been difficult or impossible to program on the remote, not to menttion the custom upgrades I have for my C-band receiver, althernate addresses on my DTH systems, custom TiVo upgrade, DVD, and home built A/V switcher (the switcher would be difficult to do without JP1, as it allowed me to strategically design an upgrade for it which significantly simplified the hardware design of the logic board.)

[talez]

Okay, I finally gotten my HTPro + JP1 cable yesterday. Here I'm ready to create a upgrade for my devices. No one had made an upgrade for the devices I have (HK avr75, Sony dvp-ns501p,...).

So here I'm trying to create an upgrade for my Sony dvp-ns501p first, and I'm stumped at one of the learned function, it had two protocols. What to do?

# Protocol Device Sub-Device OBC HexCmd EFC
1 Sony20 26 73 99 C6 252
2 Async7:447-456:10.54..51.F4 68 20 68

[johnsfine]

The Async decoder is unreliable and imagines decodes when they aren't really there. You should ignore Async decodes unless you have specific reason to believe they are correct (such as a set of IR signals meant to duplicate PC signals for keyboard or rs232).

In this case you have specific reason to believe the Async decodes are wrong (the fact that you also get a more sensible decode in a normal protocol).

If you learn enough functions you might find you have multiple Sony protocols, which may be a more complex question. But the non Sony decodes you get for your Sony device should be ignored.

[talez]

Thank you John, I'll ignore it and give it a try.

Another question is that, with 0533 code set up for HTPro, I was able to get most of the basic funtions free for the dvp. I only need to learn a few functions and assigned them to L1-L4, Sleep, M1-M3. Now if I am creating an upgrade for this dvp. Do I have to learn all the buttons on my original remote?

Basically, I just want to confirm that in order to create the upgrade, I can not just learn the missing functions and hope HTPro will supply the basic functions for device 0533.

In RM, I have to give a code 1533 for 0533, could this mean 1533 is more an extension to 0533? So if I press the TV button, it shows 1533, however, it really is a combination of the functions from 0533 and 1533 (with only the missing ones)?

Well, I'll just go ahead and try it any way and see if I can answer my own question.

Thank you all.

[johnsfine]

I only need to learn a few functions and assigned them to L1-L4, Sleep, M1-M3. Now if I am creating an upgrade for this dvp.

An upgrade would need to create KeyMoves for those keys, so it's simpler if you just create the KeyMoves yourself.

The upgrade file may also be a good place to record the function to OBC correspondence to make later changes easier. But you can do that even if you never install the body of of the upgrade in the remote.

Do I have to learn all the buttons on my original remote?

If you want an upgrade (rather than KeyMoves) you need to get that infor from somewhere. There may be an OBC or EFC list for 0533 online somewhere already, so you might not need the learning.

Basically, I just want to confirm that in order to create the upgrade, I can not just learn the missing functions and hope HTPro will supply the basic functions for device 0533.

Upgrades don't work that way. If you want to work that way, use 0533 with KeyMoves.

In RM, I have to give a code 1533 for 0533, could this mean 1533 is more an extension to 0533? So if I press the TV button, it shows 1533, however, it really is a combination of the functions from 0533 and 1533 (with only the missing ones)?

Upgrades don't work that way.