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Question to "Key Moves"

 
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Tanzbaerli



Joined: 22 May 2023
Posts: 10

                    
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 7:28 am    Post subject: Question to "Key Moves" Reply with quote

Wow ... i am excited what i can do in a comfortable way with my URC3661 und RMIR! I spent a few hours to set up the remote and now i will start to use it and see if i missed something.

I came from a Harmony remote (end of life) over the Sofabaton U1 (awful keys, weak distance and no backlight) and landed now by the cheap OneForAll. I never thought that this device is so good.

What i did not understand is the "Key Moves" Tab. As far as i understood i can assign a key from one device to another key of another device. Right?.
I tried to bound a learned key from one device to another but it never suceeded. I solved it by assigned the learned command again to the other key but should not "Bound key" do the same thing? Or can it just bind the original command of a key?
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you are familiar with "setup codes" (ie, the numbers in the manual that you use to program one of your devices to a device button. And you may already have learned about "upgrades" where you can add new setup codes to your remote's memory. Can you visualize upgrades or setup codes as collections of button codes? If so, think of "keymoves" as a way to copy one of those button codes to a new location.

Long before we invented JP1 or the ability to add upgrades to these remotes, keymoves were the best tool that we had to do custom programming. If you do a keymove on the remote itself, you can either copy an existing button code from one location to another, or you can invent a new button code by assigning an EFC (aka "advanced code") to a new button.

In the JP1 world, keymoves have a more limited function because we can do most of what we want using upgrades, but even upgrades have limitations because we are limited to the keymaps that are built into the remote. A keymap tells you which buttons are programmable in each device mode and there are usually a few buttons left out. For example, the guys who created the remote decided that you probably don't need the PIP buttons for an AUDIO device, so they probably left out the PIP buttons from the AUDIO keymap. However, you might want to use the PIP buttons for something, and if that is the case, you can program them using keymoves.

Another reason that we still use keymoves is for when we want to mix buttons from one device into another. For example, you might have a DVD player assigned to one of the device buttons, but you might want to program a button in DVD mode to select the DVD input on your stereo receiver, so what you might do is program a keymove to place the DVD input from your audio upgrade in DVD mode.

Does that help?
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3FG
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if Rob answered the implied question of whether a keymove is effective with learned signals. My understanding is the learned signals can not be keymoved, and the reason is that the keymove mechanism exploits the main operating modes of UEI remotes: For the most part, the remote generates a IR signal by the use of protocol executors. Each device has a protocol executor assigned to it, and each defined key (button) has one to several bytes of data assigned to it for each the devices. A keymove does not virtually "press" a different button, but instead changes the protocol executor and button data to that of the bound button. That's the short version; there are further details, but none of them involve learned signals.

In the JP1 world, we typically try to convert learned signals to the underlying protocol. It takes less memory, and allows exploration for acceptable IR commands that aren't on the OEM remote.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that was the question, "can you move learned signals?", the answer is yes. If you learn a signal to the, let's say, "GUIDE" button, but you've now decided that you want it on the "MENU" button, simply download the remote's memory using RMIR, go to the Learned Signals tab, and change the button from GUIDE to MENU. But that's not a "keymove". Using the terms "keymove" and "learned signal" in the same sentence is like asking "can I ride a car?" You drive a car and ride a bike, you can't ride a car.
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Last edited by The Robman on Fri May 26, 2023 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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davecs



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give you a practical example of a key move. I also have a URC-3661 and I have chosen not to use "Activities", because I prefer to use a macro on the Activity buttons to switch on the devices needed. This is explained here:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/The_3660_family#Activities

The way my system is set up, I want the Volume and Mute buttons always to operate my Amplifier volume. This is easily taken care of through the "Volume Punch Through" feature. The other thing is that I want the AV/Input button (top left on the remote) always to operate the TV, allowing the TV's video input to be selected between devices. Successive presses on that button make the TV scroll through available inputs. A macro on that button wouldn't work because it would leave the Remote controlling the TV afterwards. This is where the Key Move comes in. I have used a Key Move to every device that plays through the TV (a combined BluRay/DVD/PVR unit, a combined DVD and VHS player/recorder, and a computer as a Media Centre) on the AV/Input button to send that signal to the TV. As it is a key move, control is returned to the device in use afterwards.

If you are trying to achieve something like that, maybe you can be specific and someone here can walk you through it. As this was your first post, I assume that you're a beginner, and what may be obvious to people who have been using RMIR for years, might not be to you.

So my advice is... say exactly what you're trying to achieve and someone will tell you whether it's possible and how to do it.
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Tanzbaerli



Joined: 22 May 2023
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the answers. There is much more to understand as i know so far. Especially the "upgrade" in a new thing for me which have have not touched so far. I am not shure if i need it currently.

For me it looks like there are differnet ways to solve the same problem and the little diffenecenes are not quite clear for a beginner.

3FG wrote:
My understanding is the learned signals can not be keymoved,


The Robamn wrote:

If that was the question, "can you move learned signal?", the answer is yes.


But even my simple question "Can learned signals be keymoved" seems not easy to answer. One of you is wrong. I tried it and it did not work with the "keymove" feature and 3FG explained it in a understandable way. So I assume that leaned signals cannot be keymoved using the "keymove" feature! Maybe it can work after using the "upgrade" ... but maybe i understand even upgrade in the wrong way.

I think that 3FG answers my question (talking about keymove feature) and Robman talks about "move/assign a learned signal to another key" which is not exactly the same.

By the way the term "keymove" means in my understanding its not available any longer on the original place. Should not be "keycopy" the correct naming of the feature !?
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanzbaerli wrote:
But even my simple question "Can learned signals be keymoved" seems not easy to answer.

That is because we don't understand what you mean. What is it you are trying to achieve? Do you want to have the same learned signal on more than one key, perhaps on a different device? If so, that is easy but it is not a keymove. Just use the Clone button on the Learned Signals tab and select the device and key that you want the cloned signal to be on.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, the term "keymove" is not relevant to a learned signal. If you are really asking "can I move a learned signal from one button to anther?" the answer is yes and I explained how to do it.

If you think the term "keymove" is incorrect for actual key moves, and you think it should be "keycopy", that's fine, you can use that term for yourself, but we didn't invent the term, UEI (the guys who make the remotes) did, so that's what we use.

Again, the term "keymove" refers to the process of either:
1. Copying a button code (not a learned signal) from one button to anther, or
2. Creating a new button code using an EFC (advanced code)
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanzbaerli wrote:
But even my simple question "Can learned signals be keymoved" seems not easy to answer. One of you is wrong. I tried it and it did not work with the "keymove" feature.
It is easy to answer and it was answered. Nobody told you keymove would work for learns. You tried it of your own accord. But they did tell you how to "move" your learn by other means. So before you go accusing the foremost JP1 experts of being wrong, please read the replies more carefully and thoughtfully. You're not getting off to a great start here.
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Tanzbaerli



Joined: 22 May 2023
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My basic question was about keymoves. I found this feature, wanted to understand it, used it for learned signals and it did not work. So i asked about it.
Thanks to 3FG i understand it now. "The robman" just confused my a little bit but as i wrote in my last reply he explained not the "keymove feature".

If someone thinks i accused someone, sorry but that was not my intend. And for a beginner in the beginner form its not so easy to understand the fine differences.
But i think i understand it now thanks to your great help.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanzbaerli wrote:
"The robman" just confused my a little bit but as i wrote in my last reply he explained not the "keymove feature".

On the contrary, I did explain keymoves in my first post. Your question was confused because you were trying to use the keymove function to move a learned signal, which is not what it does. So in my second post I explained how to move a learned signal.

Before you go around saying that people didn't answer your question, actually READ their response.
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